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Author Topic: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?  (Read 12263 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2012, 12:23:10 PM »
I would certainly love to see an example of a real world shot using the 24 1.4 wide open [out of 100 shots - how many @ 1.4?] compared to ones shot at f2 or even 2.8 - real difference? care to share?

Well, I don't have the 24L, but I do have the 35mm f/1.4L...


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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2012, 12:23:10 PM »

pharp

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2012, 12:44:37 PM »
I would certainly love to see an example of a real world shot using the 24 1.4 wide open [out of 100 shots - how many @ 1.4?] compared to ones shot at f2 or even 2.8 - real difference? care to share?

Well, I don't have the 24L, but I do have the 35mm f/1.4L...


EOS 5D Mark II, EF 35mm f/1.4L USM, 1/30 s, f/1.4, ISO 100

Nice shot; so to my point, two questions for you [very unscientific poll];
1. Do you believe this shot would be any different / better at f/2?
2. Would you have bought a 35mm f/2L instead if available? All else being equal - build quality, etc. Presumably cheaper with smaller filters?
Just curious.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 12:59:49 PM by pharp »

neuroanatomist

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2012, 12:59:39 PM »
Nice shot; so to my point, two questions for you [very unscientific poll];
1. Do you believe this shot be any different/better at f/2?
2. Would you have bought a 35mm f/2L instead if available? All else being equal - build quality, etc. Presumably cheaper with smaller filters?
Just curious.

Thanks!

I'd say worse, because there would be less OOF blur, which is what I was going for.  Attached below are a pair of simlar shots, the first at f/1.4, the second at f/3.2 - not a test, just playing around.  Both are with the 5DII and 35L.  I prefer the wider aperture, personally.  Note that you can't make out the face in the background at all with f/1.4, while I find it distracting at f/3.2.

I don't think I'd have bought a 35/2L if available - faster is better, for aperture if not ISO.  In the shot above, I was at ISO 100 - clearly, I had a lot of freedom to bump that up (I find ISO 3200 usable on the 5DII, be even conservatively saying ISO 1600, that shot could have been taken at f/5.6 instead of f/1.4 with the same shutter speed.  Filter size?  I actually prefer the 72mm - it's the same size as the 85/1.2L II and the 135L, meaning the same 3-stop ND filter works on the entire 'holy trinity' and a 3-stop ND is just right for outdoor, wide open portraits and/or overcoming the sun with flash.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 01:01:18 PM by neuroanatomist »
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pharp

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2012, 01:05:41 PM »
Nice shot; so to my point, two questions for you [very unscientific poll];
1. Do you believe this shot be any different/better at f/2?
2. Would you have bought a 35mm f/2L instead if available? All else being equal - build quality, etc. Presumably cheaper with smaller filters?
Just curious.

Thanks!

I'd say worse, because there would be less OOF blur, which is what I was going for.  Attached below are a pair of simlar shots, the first at f/1.4, the second at f/3.2 - not a test, just playing around.  Both are with the 5DII and 35L.  I prefer the wider aperture, personally.  Note that you can't make out the face in the background at all with f/1.4, while I find it distracting at f/3.2.

I don't think I'd have bought a 35/2L if available - faster is better, for aperture if not ISO.  In the shot above, I was at ISO 100 - clearly, I had a lot of freedom to bump that up (I find ISO 3200 usable on the 5DII, be even conservatively saying ISO 1600, that shot could have been taken at f/5.6 instead of f/1.4 with the same shutter speed.  Filter size?  I actually prefer the 72mm - it's the same size as the 85/1.2L II and the 135L, meaning the same 3-stop ND filter works on the entire 'holy trinity' and a 3-stop ND is just right for outdoor, wide open portraits and/or overcoming the sun with flash.

OK - good points, thanks for sharing.  Guess I'll have to rethink my assumptions.

kubelik

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2012, 01:09:03 PM »
neuro brings up a good point there, it's actually nicer to have a larger filter size if it means it's the standard L-series filter size.  having to haul around easily-warped filter step-up rings is a mild pain in the rear.

that being said, I'd still prefer an updated 35mm f/2 over an updated 35mm f/1.4 L ... partly because of cost, largely because of visibility/size.  I love the dimensions of the 85 f/1.8 and 50 f/1.4 over their L counterparts, because they're great for casual walkaround shooting where you don't want the 5D to draw any more attention than it already does.

GoldenEagle

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Does this apply to wide lenses?
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2012, 05:28:46 PM »
It's my position that ultra-high ISO's will have a much less impact on a buying decision for wide lenses. Why?

1. Fewer available substitutes
2. Cost differentials between substitutes are much narrower
3. Price max on very best f/1.4 L glass doesn't exceed $2K (vs. telephotos at $6K-$12K)
3. No significant weight penalty for faster lenses (i.e. none require monopod) so less benefit by going with slower version at that focal length

That's why I framed the original post as impact on telephoto series....

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2012, 06:22:19 PM »
Higher ISO shutter speeds allow faster shutter speeds in many common situations.  We still will need wide aperture lenses.

1. For sports and wildlife where fast movement is involved in dim light, or sometimes even in good light. 

2.  Wedding, Theatre, and other extreme low light photography where lenses are wide open and ISO is as high as it will go.  Even a slight movement at 1/20 or 1/40 second blurs the image.

Here one taken last week with my 5D MK II at ISO 6400, 135mm L @ f/2.0, and 1/125 se




This one was at ISO 3200, f/2, 1/125 sec.  I should have set ISO 6400, but did not have time, and I did not know ISO 6400 would come out so well with the LR 4 beta.  It ended up being pulled up in processing.





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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2012, 06:22:19 PM »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2012, 06:34:06 PM »
as neuro and brian pointed out, the purpose of f/2.8 or wider apertures isn't necessarily to help you shoot in lower light
I don't want to get too metaphysical here, but I think this is not a case of "purpose" so much as a case of "camera manufacturers dealing with the realities of camera tech vastly different from film."

If we could get the additional sensitivity of lenses faster than f/2 (or whatever that limit is) back, you'd better bet it'd appear.  It's not an intentional limitation of the lenses.

That being said it's still pretty important for people to know about this.  Lens manufacturers don't have much incentive to tell people about it, which is regrettable, but apparently it's not caused any lawsuits yet, so...It's interesting that the third party lens manufacturers don't bother with f/1.2 lenses, though, isn't it?

briansquibb

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2012, 07:43:39 PM »
as neuro and brian pointed out, the purpose of f/2.8 or wider apertures isn't necessarily to help you shoot in lower light
I don't want to get too metaphysical here, but I think this is not a case of "purpose" so much as a case of "camera manufacturers dealing with the realities of camera tech vastly different from film."

If we could get the additional sensitivity of lenses faster than f/2 (or whatever that limit is) back, you'd better bet it'd appear.  It's not an intentional limitation of the lenses.

That being said it's still pretty important for people to know about this.  Lens manufacturers don't have much incentive to tell people about it, which is regrettable, but apparently it's not caused any lawsuits yet, so...It's interesting that the third party lens manufacturers don't bother with f/1.2 lenses, though, isn't it?

Sorry Edwin - I just dont understand where you are coming from or going to ??? ???

F/2.8 in the current world is an important number in that:

- you get better AF from the current sensors
- you get a decent blurred background from ff
- you get resaonably fine DOF
- you get a decent amount of light for low light shooting whilst keeping the iso up for better IQ

Yes I do undersand that you can move from f/2.8 to f/4 by going, say from iso 12800 to iso25600 however sensors without exception give worse IQ the higher it goes

Hopefully that will clarify my position on this.



zim

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2012, 08:12:49 PM »
Apologies for being a bit off topic but I’d love to know what you all consider the best luminance and chrominance Noise Reduction options out there to be?
I’d like to assume that Canon know what’s best for their own camera’s therefore DPP should be real good, especially at the price  :) but the comments here about Lightroom make me wonder?

neuroanatomist

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2012, 08:39:42 PM »
@Brian - I believe Edwin is referring to my comment early in the thread, about how ultrafast lenses (f/1.4, f/1.2) don't provide the light-gathering advantage on a dSLR that most people think.  Film was a different story, but digital sensors aren't able to efficiently capture photons at high angles of incidence.  So, with an f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens on a dSLR, the camera acutually clandestinely increases the ISO by up to half a stop or more (greater effect with wider apertures and smaller pixels). For example, say you're shooting in Av mode with a 50/1.4 at 1/100 s, f/2, ISO 1600.  You change the aperture to f/1.4 without changing the ISO, and you expect the shutter speed to go to 1/200 s - and it does. But, the sensor can't actually capture the full additional stop of light at f/1.4, so instead it adjusts the ISO to 2000.  You don't know that from the settings - the EXIF shows the ISO 1600 you set. However, you have an extra 1/3 stop of noise in your shot.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 08:53:43 PM by neuroanatomist »
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Hillsilly

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2012, 10:56:34 PM »
Is this what they call "automatic vignetting correction"?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 01:32:31 AM by Hillsilly »
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briansquibb

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2012, 11:52:52 PM »
@Brian - I believe Edwin is referring to my comment early in the thread, about how ultrafast lenses (f/1.4, f/1.2) don't provide the light-gathering advantage on a dSLR that most people think.  Film was a different story, but digital sensors aren't able to efficiently capture photons at high angles of incidence.  So, with an f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens on a dSLR, the camera acutually clandestinely increases the ISO by up to half a stop or more (greater effect with wider apertures and smaller pixels). For example, say you're shooting in Av mode with a 50/1.4 at 1/100 s, f/2, ISO 1600.  You change the aperture to f/1.4 without changing the ISO, and you expect the shutter speed to go to 1/200 s - and it does. But, the sensor can't actually capture the full additional stop of light at f/1.4, so instead it adjusts the ISO to 2000.  You don't know that from the settings - the EXIF shows the ISO 1600 you set. However, you have an extra 1/3 stop of noise in your shot.

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2012, 11:52:52 PM »

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2012, 03:17:46 AM »
Should think It would have more affect on the need for fast wide angle primes!  Really any need for a 24mm 1.4 anymore?

Have you ever used a 24 f1,4 L II on a fullframe body?? The look of the picture you get at that wide angle and that shallow depth can't be done by anything else.

Nope, never have, but I would certainly love to see an example of a real world shot using the 24 1.4 wide open [out of 100 shots - how many @ 1.4?] compared to ones shot at f2 or even 2.8 - real difference? care to share?  Anyway, I didn't really mean to suggest that nobody would want the faster wide angle lens, but they are pricey, big and the DOF advantages aren't as obvious [compared to telephotos].  I'm simply surmising that many [most?] folks will find less need for them as high ISO performance improves.  If Canon made a nice 24mm f2 L - I'd be all over it!

I'll go out on a limb and predict that across the board - high ISO cameras will increasingly cannabalize [not eliminate] the sales of fast [zoom and prime] lenses for ALOT of shooters - how could it not? Size and price really do matter!

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« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 03:21:25 AM by Viggo »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 06:57:34 AM »
Is this what they call "automatic vignetting correction"?

Nope.
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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 06:57:34 AM »