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Author Topic: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup  (Read 37998 times)

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5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« on: January 24, 2012, 08:15:26 AM »
Follow-up form Stephen Oachs Mr. Oachs has posted a followup post to yesterday’s images of the new 200-400 and an unidentified camera. He’s also posted a RAW for those that believe the image was altered in any way.

Read it here

22mp perfect for 3×3 oversampling? Below is a direct quote about the reported 22mp resolution

I have no insider information, but just wanted to point that 22 MP has some “magical” properties for HD video, as it corresponds exactly to a 3×3 oversampling of the final video resolution. (22 MP, minus crop for 16:9 ratio, divided by 9, equal 1080×1920)

The next “magical” resolution (4×4 oversamping) is at 39 MP.

CPS Event in Yokohama? I’m told there is a CPS event in Yokohama, Japan at CP+. Those usually lead to some kind of announcement.

cr

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5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« on: January 24, 2012, 08:15:26 AM »

tt

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 08:30:17 AM »
Would normal photographers have covers/coats/skins/protection on their lenses? Why would the Canon guy not have?
Apart from field testing without, isn't it a bit of a "look here at the new kit"?

Have previous CPS announcement evens been before, or during the CP+ or similar events?

Neeneko

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 08:57:53 AM »
If the reason stated in this rumor is true regarding why the camera uses a 22MP sensor, I will be seriously pissed.

Not because 22MP is bad, but because that would mean video requirements are influencing the still photo design of new cameras.  This is something I was worried about when Canon started merging the products, that the still cameras would start compromising their design in order to meet the needs of video features.

These types of design decisions might push me away from Canon.. I want a device that does one thing well, the thing I bought it for, not 2 things 'ok' at the same price point... and stuff like this really shows that adding video is not just a 'free' feature.

NormanBates

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 09:07:25 AM »
once again, the "having video makes this camera worse for stills" argument
I completely disagree

and I didn't hear any stills shooters complaining in the times of film, when you could buy better and vastly cheaper film stocks thanks to the huge demand for film by the movie industry
just as "kodak should forget about stills and develop better film stocks for its main customer, the movie industry" was a dumb argument back then, "canon should forget about video and develop better stills cameras" is silly now

BornNearDaBayou

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 09:17:36 AM »
Oh people let's stop all this nonsense! Video does not influence the still camera design. It's just one person's opinion, and not directly from Canon, Inc.

Remember video on the 5dII was revolutionary at the time. They just want to be the pioneers and innovators in that category. The 5dII is a wonderful still camera and is used as such by 95% of owners. I foresee the MP count as being slightly higher. Even at 22MP, if true, it BETTER have 2 stop improvement over 5dII in low-light. Otherwise I will NOT upgrade. Nor will many other folks. Canon is an intelligent corporation--they do market research and design accordingly.

AprilForever

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 09:25:30 AM »
Amazing what a firestorm those few pictures have generated... I am sure that Canon had something to do with the release of these pictures...
What is truth?

AlicoatePhotography

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 09:35:18 AM »
Wow, The RAW image is really detailed.  I was skeptical looking at the jpeg image of the new camera.  The 200-400 was pretty convincing, but there was some doubt on the camera.  The RAW photo ends the doubt.  My guess is that this is the Cinema camera that they had already referenced.  The change of format to the LCD, Rate button, No +- for chimping.  Seems like some ergonomic changes I wouldn't expect in the 5DMKII. 

2D cinema?

No matter what, I am very glad to see it.

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 09:35:18 AM »

DramaMask

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 09:44:59 AM »
It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.

On another note, I think if Canon really wanted to leak pictures of this camera they would have sent this guy to a ball game in the US, not to some remote part of Africa.

mkln

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 09:45:37 AM »
Those pics are nice and clearly somehow there must be Canon behind them.
Tho being so obvious is not that smart of a move by them, idk.

Anyway, from the available data I think that it is reasonable to expect:
- the new camera to be called 5D X (it makes sense to keep the 5 numbering, after all the 5D2 was the first HDSLR)
- it will have features from 5D Mark II (full frame, resolution), and 7D (autofocus)
- it will not substitute the 5D Mark II (like G1X doesn't substitute G12). same for 7D.
- they will continue to sell 5D Mark II at a discount price ($1999? wasn't this the discounted price on BH?)
- they will sell the new 5D X at a premium relative to the original launch price of the 5D Mark II (which I don't know. I would guess at least a $500 dollar premium for body-only)

Also, note how Canon and Nikon are now competing directly on all segments (now more than in the last years)

we had D3 and 1D (different sensor size, different resolution), we have D4 and 1D X (basically the same)
we had D700 and 5D Mark II (different speed, different resolution, different autofocus, different video), we will have D800 and 5D X (same everything?)
canon went with a "D90" design for the 60D, Nikon went for a 50D design with the D7000, so here's one difference. the other being Canon chose G1X vs Nikon's 1 system.

I currently have a NEX 5n and a 5d 2 and (Canon please read here, now) I will only upgrade to a 5D X if it has
- wider dynamic range
- better noise performance at 6400+
- better quality of the noise grain (no banding this time please).
that's it for me. the NEX has spoiled me in this sense, its sensor has the only downside of being APSC and not full frame.
All in all I found DxO rankings for sensors to be pretty accurate.

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 09:48:00 AM »
Well, looking at the photo.....it looks like this person modelled. Standing in this position would assume this person focused the camera and is ready to shoot.
If you look on the LCD, it is empty. Camera is not on. 

Or, am I mssing something?
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Picsfor

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 09:51:23 AM »
The 5DX has been mentioned before, and if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.

It provides an upgrade path for 7D and 5D2 users in a single stroke, giving all a bit of everything.
As has been pointed out, it will drive sales for more expensive L lenses, it will simplify the production process (1 line instead of 2), and it would sure as hell give Nikon and Sony something to think about.

The battery grip with the extra joystick makes it almost worth upgrading just for that feature alone.

So, for your £2500, the 22mp FF is nothing new, which means Canon have to introduce something to make it worth while upgrading to.

So, if we're talking about a 5DX, what would i expect?
Well if we take the 22mp FF as the sensor option we then have to consider something that makes it worth upgrading for.

First off, the AF has to be a given - it is the only issue that has ever received negative press on the 5D2 (apart from the initial black dot thing). And there is no way 7D'ers would upgrade to this unless it had at least 7D focusing - so that or a pro series AF seems most likely. Would it be a 1DX AF? I can see pluses and minuses for this. Would be cheaper to implement production wise - but would it detract from 1DX sales?
Jury's out on that - but it would certainly get the 7D folk chomping at the bit.

ISO - up it to 12800 or 25600 working, again, 5D2's would be happy with an extra stop, and the 7D brigade would be happy as well.

Dynamic Range - either/ or - could be one of those things they leave for the 1DX.

Weather proofing - by having the small body format, it means the battery grip is an add on, which will always compromise weather proofing. I would not expect this to be as good as a 1DX.

Buffer & Frame Rate - both severely hampered in comparison to the 1DX. You gets what you pay for...

Dual Card Slots - i suspect this might be slipped in to aid the video brigade (for those who can't afford a 1DX) - remember it only allows extended video length, not improves video quality to 1DX level. It would also be one of those clinching features for those who are umming and ahhring. As for low end wedding togs, what a boost.

GPS built in - this is a gimmick that would appeal to the traveler and landscape brigade more than sports brigade - though the wildlife lot might not complain. I say gimmick - i am well aware of its uses - but i still do not see it as a real marketing issue for most because when importing pics, the location tends to end up in the tags and keywords for ease of search.

Shutter life - held at 150k or 200k - which would make you wonder whether to stump up now for a 1DX and get that 400k shutter life, or get in half price increments!

Oh, and finally, that wonderful battery grip with the additional joystick. Whilst an optional extra, i wonder how many wedding and wildlife togs would get such a battery grip, who previously haven't bought one? The ability to swap from landscape to portrait and select focus point on the fly would be an absolute must - but you're only getting this wonderful 1DX feature at a premium (£300) which in turn means more revenue for Canon and means you're getting closer to the 1DX price tag in steps.

Yes, the 5DX would definitely be for people who can't afford a 1DX, but would like one. £2500 for the body, £300 for battery grip - that's almost £3000 for a stripped down 1DX that may well have a street price of £4200 after initial launch. It's good enough to make people stretch, but short enough in features to make the pros (people whose living depends on getting 'that' shot) needing to cough up the extra.

Most importantly - it is a strong enough feature set to get the 'newcomers' choosing Canon over Nikon and Sony.

I may be totally wrong, but it would follow on with Canons 1DX strategy and would certainly leave Nikon playing catch up. I know a few Nikon shooters who do not want a 36mp D800 and would swap to a 5D3 if it held to the 21/22mp region.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 09:54:47 AM by Picsfor »

mkln

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 10:09:46 AM »
The 5DX has been mentioned before, and if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.

It provides an upgrade path for 7D and 5D2 users in a single stroke, giving all a bit of everything.
As has been pointed out, it will drive sales for more expensive L lenses, it will simplify the production process (1 line instead of 2), and it would sure as hell give Nikon and Sony something to think about.

The battery grip with the extra joystick makes it almost worth upgrading just for that feature alone.

So, for your £2500, the 22mp FF is nothing new, which means Canon have to introduce something to make it worth while upgrading to.

So, if we're talking about a 5DX, what would i expect?
Well if we take the 22mp FF as the sensor option we then have to consider something that makes it worth upgrading for.

First off, the AF has to be a given - it is the only issue that has ever received negative press on the 5D2 (apart from the initial black dot thing). And there is no way 7D'ers would upgrade to this unless it had at least 7D focusing - so that or a pro series AF seems most likely. Would it be a 1DX AF? I can see pluses and minuses for this. Would be cheaper to implement production wise - but would it detract from 1DX sales?
Jury's out on that - but it would certainly get the 7D folk chomping at the bit.

ISO - up it to 12800 or 25600 working, again, 5D2's would be happy with an extra stop, and the 7D brigade would be happy as well.

Dynamic Range - either/ or - could be one of those things they leave for the 1DX.

Weather proofing - by having the small body format, it means the battery grip is an add on, which will always compromise weather proofing. I would not expect this to be as good as a 1DX.

Buffer & Frame Rate - both severely hampered in comparison to the 1DX. You gets what you pay for...

Dual Card Slots - i suspect this might be slipped in to aid the video brigade (for those who can't afford a 1DX) - remember it only allows extended video length, not improves video quality to 1DX level. It would also be one of those clinching features for those who are umming and ahhring. As for low end wedding togs, what a boost.

GPS built in - this is a gimmick that would appeal to the traveler and landscape brigade more than sports brigade - though the wildlife lot might not complain. I say gimmick - i am well aware of its uses - but i still do not see it as a real marketing issue for most because when importing pics, the location tends to end up in the tags and keywords for ease of search.

Shutter life - held at 150k or 200k - which would make you wonder whether to stump up now for a 1DX and get that 400k shutter life, or get in half price increments!

Oh, and finally, that wonderful battery grip with the additional joystick. Whilst an optional extra, i wonder how many wedding and wildlife togs would get such a battery grip, who previously haven't bought one? The ability to swap from landscape to portrait and select focus point on the fly would be an absolute must - but you're only getting this wonderful 1DX feature at a premium (£300) which in turn means more revenue for Canon and means you're getting closer to the 1DX price tag in steps.

Yes, the 5DX would definitely be for people who can't afford a 1DX, but would like one. £2500 for the body, £300 for battery grip - that's almost £3000 for a stripped down 1DX that may well have a street price of £4200 after initial launch. It's good enough to make people stretch, but short enough in features to make the pros (people whose living depends on getting 'that' shot) needing to cough up the extra.

Most importantly - it is a strong enough feature set to get the 'newcomers' choosing Canon over Nikon and Sony.

I may be totally wrong, but it would follow on with Canons 1DX strategy and would certainly leave Nikon playing catch up. I know a few Nikon shooters who do not want a 36mp D800 and would swap to a 5D3 if it held to the 21/22mp region.
I agree when you say that Canon needs to differentiate between 1 and 5. I think (and I really hope) that they don't do so on the dynamic range side of things. I think it is more likely they will do so with noise.
This makes sense because the 5 would have higher resolution, and would not be targeted to sports photogs, differently from the 1.
So I'd expect 1 stop advantage over 5dII, 1 stop disadvantage compared to 1DX. This still means having native usable 6400 (at least).

I don't agree with you when you say that Nikon would need to play catch up. If the D800 has a higher resolution and keeps the sensor quality on par with D700, then I don't think it's Nikon who has to play catch up.
The only true cons for the D700 were resolution and HD video. The pros were a better quality of raw files at higher sensitivity levels (on a per pixel basis), and the autofocus.
Now I don't suppose the D800 will be a step down from the D700. Then it's reasonable to think its raw files will be great.
At the same time Canon sensors have not been up to Sony/Nikon standards lately, and I certainly hope they can revert this.
(I say this looking at my NEX 5N and wishing Canon had a full frame version of it).


Also, given we're talking about HD video, Canon would also need to be implementing at least some of the killer features from Magic Lantern.
I am currently using the unified ML, beta version on my 5D2 and it is amazing just for focus peaking and some other photo-oriented live view features. This gives me less reasons to think about an upgrade to 5DX...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 10:12:30 AM by mkln »

jbgreig

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 10:16:39 AM »
Well, looking at the photo.....it looks like this person modelled. Standing in this position would assume this person focused the camera and is ready to shoot.
If you look on the LCD, it is empty. Camera is not on. 

Or, am I mssing something?

LCD is not empty.  I downloaded the RAW and opened in LR.  Bumping up the exposure way up reveals lots of detail.  In the LCD is a red headed bird (bluish markings around the eye) zoomed way in.  Grab the RAW.  It helps a bunch!

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 10:16:39 AM »

candyman

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2012, 10:42:45 AM »
Well, looking at the photo.....it looks like this person modelled. Standing in this position would assume this person focused the camera and is ready to shoot.
If you look on the LCD, it is empty. Camera is not on. 

Or, am I mssing something?

LCD is not empty.  I downloaded the RAW and opened in LR.  Bumping up the exposure way up reveals lots of detail.  In the LCD is a red headed bird (bluish markings around the eye) zoomed way in.  Grab the RAW.  It helps a bunch!

Sorry, I mean the small LCD with WB, AF-drive, ISO
But, I get it. The photographer pressed the "view image" button and he is looking at the photo on the big LCD - but in a sidewards position.

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JR

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 11:05:39 AM »
There does not seem to be a lot of info trickling down to Graig on the ISO performance of this new camera.  Could this mean the 5DmkII replacement will get a pro-grade AF, maybe a slitly new sensor, surely some improved video stuff but could retain the existing ISO performance, such that the 1DX is the ISO champion for Canon as well as the speed deamon!

Anyone with thoughts on this one?
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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 11:05:39 AM »