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Author Topic: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup  (Read 37472 times)

ro_n

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #120 on: January 25, 2012, 08:36:49 AM »
new left-handed camera.  Apologies if anyone finds that argument too sinister.   ::)
only those who are maladroit...     (argh, argh)

More smites for this?!  C'mon guys- sinister is latin for left-handed, maladroit is a commonly-borrowed french term for the same attribute. Sheesh, have a sense of humour...  :(
For sure, these smites are for NOT changing your avatar to that pink thingy you suggested elsewhere.  ;D

btw: long time lurker, first time poster...
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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #120 on: January 25, 2012, 08:36:49 AM »

motorhead

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #121 on: January 25, 2012, 08:57:19 AM »
   I am hearing a lot of Nikon users saying that they are not going to upgrade to the D4, still more have concerns over the file sizes which will result from a 36MP sensor in a possible D800, so large that stock libraries will not accept them without downsizing.
[/quote]

From my own experience, as MP numbers climb, so do picture library requirements. No names, no pack drill, but I know of more than one that unless a contributor uses a 1DS3 or 5D2, even an uncropped image is not big enough.

So decisions made on current picture library requirements is a bit silly.

necator

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #122 on: January 25, 2012, 09:10:10 AM »
It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.

To all who are thinking that the next 5D will inevitable have the same sensor, since everything else will be canons ruin:
None of the 5D sensors have ever been the same as those from the 1Ds line.
  • The 5d had 12.8MP while the 1DsMK2 had 16.6MP.
  • The 5dMK2 has a similar sensor like the 1DsMK3, but not the same: DPReview says:
    Quote
    21.1 megapixel full frame CMOS sensor
    The EOS 5D Mark II delivers an 8.3 megapixel jump in pixel count from the original 5D. This new sensor is said to be based on that of the EOS-1Ds Mark III (indeed it has exactly the same pixel count) but has several small changes, the hint being that it's actually slightly better.

So, alltogether, history convinces me more that the 5dMKwhatever will have a different sensor.

What, to be honest, I never understood within canons policy was the 7D. The 3rd cropped line sharing the same sensor. I'd hve awited that canon would bring a 7D with 1.3 crop back then, but they didn't. Now I don't understand what the xxD-Line is good for. But hey, canon knows how to make money  ;)

EYEONE

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #123 on: January 25, 2012, 09:21:36 AM »
It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.

To all who are thinking that the next 5D will inevitable have the same sensor, since everything else will be canons ruin:
None of the 5D sensors have ever been the same as those from the 1Ds line.
  • The 5d had 12.8MP while the 1DsMK2 had 16.6MP.
  • The 5dMK2 has a similar sensor like the 1DsMK3, but not the same: DPReview says:
    Quote
    21.1 megapixel full frame CMOS sensor
    The EOS 5D Mark II delivers an 8.3 megapixel jump in pixel count from the original 5D. This new sensor is said to be based on that of the EOS-1Ds Mark III (indeed it has exactly the same pixel count) but has several small changes, the hint being that it's actually slightly better.

So, alltogether, history convinces me more that the 5dMKwhatever will have a different sensor.

What, to be honest, I never understood within canons policy was the 7D. The 3rd cropped line sharing the same sensor. I'd hve awited that canon would bring a 7D with 1.3 crop back then, but they didn't. Now I don't understand what the xxD-Line is good for. But hey, canon knows how to make money  ;)

I agree that the 5DIII won't have the same sensor as the 1Dx. Perhaps I should revise that. I think the 5DIII shouldn't have the same sensor, but I'm not convinced that it won't anyway. The 1DsIII and the 5DII's sensors were close enough to be counted as "the same" IMO. But that was a bit of a problem for Canon wasn't it? Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future.  Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.
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Axilrod

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #124 on: January 25, 2012, 09:48:08 AM »
ATTENTION:  I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists,  "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it."  That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera).  Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust?  Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 09:54:32 AM by Axilrod »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #125 on: January 25, 2012, 09:55:59 AM »
I agree that the 5DIII won't have the same sensor as the 1Dx. Perhaps I should revise that. I think the 5DIII shouldn't have the same sensor, but I'm not convinced that it won't anyway. The 1DsIII and the 5DII's sensors were close enough to be counted as "the same" IMO. But that was a bit of a problem for Canon wasn't it? Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future.  Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.

But...will speed be enough?  Consider...the 5D which came out after the 1DsII had fewer MP.  The 5DII which camera out after the 1DsIII has the same MP.  A 5DIII which comes out after the 1D X and has more MP?  As I stated earlier, Canon might be ok with that, essentially throwing the 1D X under the bus in favor of huge profits from a much-improved 5DIII.  But it's also possible that they'd level the playing field in other ways, perhaps ISO performance no better than that in the 5DII.

In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII?  No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features?  We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right?  Guess what - the 5DII already has a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels.  Check the specs...
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Kernuak

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #126 on: January 25, 2012, 09:59:26 AM »
Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future.  Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.
Actually, a number (I don't actually know how many) of the big name wildlife photographers (i.e.those who could afford and justify the expense) had both the 1d and 1Ds lines. The idea was that the 1D would be for times when pure speed and extra reach was needed and the 1Ds for when better image quality was more important and the frame rate less so or when a larger size image was required. The focus and frame rate were significantly better on the 1Ds than the 5D line, plus the weather proofing meant they weren't driven by the weather. Professionals simply can't afford to stop shooting, simply because their cameras might get wet. I would think those reasons were good enough to differentiate. Before his switch, Ole Liodden posted a number of blog articles when the 7D came out about the weather proofing of that camera specifically, but also Canon cameras in general, stating that a number of 40Ds and 5Ds failed in the cold arctic conditions, yet the 7D (although with limited experience) carried on. He also told a story of him dropping his 1DsMkIII in the water and it carried on working without problems.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 10:01:29 AM by Kernuak »
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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #126 on: January 25, 2012, 09:59:26 AM »

astrocrab

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #127 on: January 25, 2012, 10:04:26 AM »
3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:

GRG RGR
BGB GBG
GRG RGR

BGB GBG
GRG RGR
BGB GBG

hm, no. your example is for 3x3 pixels block, not for 6x6. 1 pixel is:
GR
BG

so 6x6 block downsampled to 2x2 block looks like

GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG

GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG

so, each pixel for HD video has same number of subpixels: 18 G, 9 R and 9 B.
and there is no problems with downsampling.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 10:06:28 AM by astrocrab »

EYEONE

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #128 on: January 25, 2012, 10:23:57 AM »

But...will speed be enough?  Consider...the 5D which came out after the 1DsII had fewer MP.  The 5DII which camera out after the 1DsIII has the same MP.  A 5DIII which comes out after the 1D X and has more MP?  As I stated earlier, Canon might be ok with that, essentially throwing the 1D X under the bus in favor of huge profits from a much-improved 5DIII.  But it's also possible that they'd level the playing field in other ways, perhaps ISO performance no better than that in the 5DII.


I'm not sure. I've considered a 5DIII with more MP than the 1Dx but I'm not sure it would be "throwing it under the bus". I think there is a market for high MP studio work and there are people that don't care as much about high ISO performance as I do. So there could be a place for the 5DIII being a higher MP camera aimed at a different market. But there is of course the fact that a very high MP 5DIII would not appeal to wedding photogs like the 5DII did. Where would they go then?



In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII?  No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features?  We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right?  Guess what - the 5DII already has a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels.  Check the specs...

I'd be fine with that actually. I'd like a tweaked and reworked sensor a little bit. But honestly I'm fine with the 5DII right now except for the AF. Which is why I bought a 7D in the first place. I wanted a 5DII but there were rumors of a 5DIII floating around and I wanted to wait and see if it would have better AF (this was over a year ago mind you).

Honestly, I'd take a 5DIII that is exactly like the current if it had an up to date AF system. I think that would be marketing suicide for Canon, however.
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astrocrab

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #129 on: January 25, 2012, 10:34:08 AM »
Yeah, as even Canon has said they want ideal video to be done from either 2x2 or 4x4 sampling only.

3x3 would be ok too. why not?

ksuweh

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #130 on: January 25, 2012, 10:56:46 AM »
Did anyone else notice the paint brush button & the "RATE" button on the left side of the camera? I'm wondering if it will have a frame rate that is selectable like the 1DX?!? Also, it looks like the CF card door isn't wide enough to enclose dual cards.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 11:02:36 AM by ksuweh »
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astrocrab

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #131 on: January 25, 2012, 11:11:06 AM »
OK. First 3x3 has 5 greens and then 2 reds and 2 blues, next 3x3 has 4 reds 4 greens and 1 blue...

first 3x3 has 18 greens, 9 reds and 9 blues, next has same number and so on:
RG   RG   RG
GB   GB   GB

RG   RG   RG
GB   GB   GB

RG   RG   RG
GB   GB   GB

Tov

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #132 on: January 25, 2012, 11:31:29 AM »
In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII?  No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features?  We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right?  Guess what - the 5DII already has a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels.  Check the specs...

A very good idea. They have only up the frame rate a little and the AF( a lot more) and they have another winner.

You could be working for Canon. ;)
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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #132 on: January 25, 2012, 11:31:29 AM »

maciej.urbanski

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #133 on: January 25, 2012, 11:47:38 AM »
3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:

GRG RGR
BGB GBG
GRG RGR

BGB GBG
GRG RGR
BGB GBG

hm, no. your example is for 3x3 pixels block, not for 6x6. 1 pixel is:
GR
BG

so 6x6 block downsampled to 2x2 block looks like

GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG

GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG
GRGRGR   GRGRGR
BGBGBG    BGBGBG

so, each pixel for HD video has same number of subpixels: 18 G, 9 R and 9 B.
and there is no problems with downsampling.

Hmm no.  :P
Let's go back to basics.
Each cell in RGB sensor with Bayer filter samples one wavelength coresponding to one basic color channel: red, green or blue. The two missing colors are extrapolated from surrounding samples (this process is often called "demosaicing").
Thus - one cell after demosaicing becomes full RGB triplet. One channel is sampled, other two - interpolated.
This is called pixel (picture element) and it's a basis for further processing.
Most digital cameras work that way.

Next, if we use 2x2 matrix of cells we'll have 2 greens, one blue and one red. After combining this in one pixel we'll get image with half width, half height. Each pixel of this image has all channels are sampled (but with slightly different spatial resolution). There's no interpolation, and with correct anti-alias filter we'll get near-alias-free reconstruction. This is what Canon C300 is doing internally.

If we get 3x3 matrix of cells we'll have pixels with 3 different kinds of R/G/B ratios i've described before. This is a very bad situation, because after averaging noise levels will wary depending on pixel position and channel.
There are cameras that do this but they are mostly toys (USB webcams). It's very easy to spot when you do any image analysis on such images. In high-noise situations noise has has a checkboard pattern.

From reconstruction standpoint any number of N*M cells that produce one pixel is OK as long as both M & N are even.

fotoray

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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #134 on: January 25, 2012, 12:21:34 PM »
ATTENTION:  I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists,  "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it."  That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera).  Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust?  Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.

Sorry we spoiled your day!
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Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #134 on: January 25, 2012, 12:21:34 PM »