September 01, 2014, 04:47:02 AM

Author Topic: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup  (Read 36812 times)

cmac

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #135 on: January 25, 2012, 12:45:16 PM »
3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:

GRG RGR
BGB GBG
GRG RGR

BGB GBG
GRG RGR
BGB GBG

hm, no. your example is for 3x3 pixels block, not for 6x6. 1 pixel is:
GR
BG



maciej.urbanski >  ;D - My point! Let the others check the basics for the bayer demosaic.
astrocrab >  :-[ > WRONG! a pixel has only on of the basics R or G or B data in it. That is why sensors like Foveon say that they have the only "TRUE" RGB sensor - because they have a layered sensor that produces a RGB data from a single pixel. Everyone else - CCD, CMOS etc. are bayer structured, or You want to say that Canon 5D Mark II has actually 5.x MP, because he has 21 Million bayer light sensors - 10.5 Million Greens and 5.x REDs and 5.x BLUE.


canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #135 on: January 25, 2012, 12:45:16 PM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14018
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #136 on: January 25, 2012, 12:51:22 PM »
Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

EVERYTHING?  So...the T3i/600D has better DR and less ISO noise than the T2i/550D...or the 7D or 60D?  Oh wait, they use the same sensor, so those parameters are essentially unchanged.  If Canon uses the 5DII sensor in the 5DIII, then what?  Oh, they can claim lower noise in the marketing effort, attributed to Digic5 and applicable to JPG only.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

mkln

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #137 on: January 25, 2012, 12:57:06 PM »
ATTENTION:  I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists,  "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it."  That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera).  Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust?  Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.

I'm sorry but that is not true. Canon has not been a strong innovator in terms of DR.

Let's look at DR measure on DxO. I found DxO to be a close match with what I see in pics from my 5d2 and nex 5n.

2003   300D   10.8
2005   350D   10.8
2005   5D     11.1
2006   400D   11
2006   30D   10.8
2007   40D   11.3
2008   450D   10.8
2008   50D   11.4
2009   500D   11.5
2009   7D   11.7
2010   550D   11.5
2010   60D   11.5
2011   600D   11.5

This is for APS-C bodies. In 8 years a 0.7 improvement in DR. Not really that much huh?
Now a quick look at full frame

2003   1Ds   11
2005   1Ds2   11.3
2007   1Ds3   12
2008   5D2   11.9

basically a 1 stop improvement in 5 years.

and that is just not enough! There are cameras based on sony sensors out there with a 2-stop dynamic range advantage over the 5D2, and they are APS-C!

In strong contrast scenes my nex 5n (with a rated 12.7 stops of dynamic range, released 2011) is just better than the 5D2.

The 5D2 is nice becuase it is full frame, it's nice because of the added features from Magic Lantern, it's nice because it can produce really detailed pics. But its sensor is outdated and Canon does not seem to have a good track record on DR improvements.
I mean, I know that there's a high probability of the new 5D X of having more DR.
I just hope there is A LOT more. Other manufacturers have proven it's possible to have 14 stops of DR. I want Canon to at least match that.
So no, it's not a waste of bandwith.

And of course it'd be nice to have better AF, better iq at high iso, and so on. Everyone has different hopes about this. no discussion is meaningless.


( let me add APS-H data, which proves the same point )

2005   1D2n   11.2
2007   1D3   11.7
2009   1D4   12




astrocrab

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #138 on: January 25, 2012, 12:58:39 PM »
Canon 5D Mark II has actually 5.x MP, because he has 21 Million bayer light sensors - 10.5 Million Greens and 5.x REDs and 5.x BLUE.

oh, i see now. =(
so, shall we ever see ideologically right foveon type sensor from canon?

Axilrod

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #139 on: January 25, 2012, 01:16:02 PM »
Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

EVERYTHING?  So...the T3i/600D has better DR and less ISO noise than the T2i/550D...or the 7D or 60D?  Oh wait, they use the same sensor, so those parameters are essentially unchanged.  If Canon uses the 5DII sensor in the 5DIII, then what?  Oh, they can claim lower noise in the marketing effort, attributed to Digic5 and applicable to JPG only.

This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about.  The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range.  It just seems like those changes are inevitable.  There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.
5DIII/5DII/Bunch of L's and ZE's, currently rearranging.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14018
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #140 on: January 25, 2012, 01:57:31 PM »
This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about.  The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range.  It just seems like those changes are inevitable.  There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.

Has Canon never done anything foolish?  Honestly, I've heard lots of complaints about the 5DII...and almost none about it's sensor.  Excepting the new 1D X (no data yet), the 5DII has the least ISO noise and is effectively tied for the best DR.  Is it a huge stretch to think they'll just re-use that sensor?  I don't think so.  They might make slight improvements, maybe gapless microlenses, etc., but if it ain't broke...  Plus a re-use would save a lot of R&D costs...
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2824
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #141 on: January 25, 2012, 02:33:30 PM »
This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about.  The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range.  It just seems like those changes are inevitable.  There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.

Has Canon never done anything foolish?  Honestly, I've heard lots of complaints about the 5DII...and almost none about it's sensor.  Excepting the new 1D X (no data yet), the 5DII has the least ISO noise and is effectively tied for the best DR.  Is it a huge stretch to think they'll just re-use that sensor?  I don't think so.  They might make slight improvements, maybe gapless microlenses, etc., but if it ain't broke...  Plus a re-use would save a lot of R&D costs...
h
The 5d2 sensor has obscene pattern noise problems that need fixing.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #141 on: January 25, 2012, 02:33:30 PM »

mkln

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2012, 02:41:30 PM »
This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about.  The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range.  It just seems like those changes are inevitable.  There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.

Has Canon never done anything foolish?  Honestly, I've heard lots of complaints about the 5DII...and almost none about it's sensor.  Excepting the new 1D X (no data yet), the 5DII has the least ISO noise and is effectively tied for the best DR.  Is it a huge stretch to think they'll just re-use that sensor?  I don't think so.  They might make slight improvements, maybe gapless microlenses, etc., but if it ain't broke...  Plus a re-use would save a lot of R&D costs...
the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
tied for the best DR? where? there are tens of cameras out there with 13+ stops of DR vs the 5D2's 11.9

Hesbehindyou

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
It's gotta be full frame, not APS-C
« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2012, 02:44:47 PM »


I appreciate that most already presume it's full frame.  For anyone still undecided:

If we take a look at the pic above he's zoomed all the way in and the bird's head only just fills the screen.  With hot weather, APS-C and a 600mm lens it's not often you're focal length limited with a relatively big bird - heat haze makes it undesirable to shoot with the intention of cropping and becomes the dominating factor.

It's also possible the bird is both long-legged and on stilts and he wanted to capture the whole creature, or that it was early in the morning.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14018
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #144 on: January 25, 2012, 02:49:10 PM »
the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
tied for the best DR? where? there are tens of cameras out there with 13+ stops of DR vs the 5D2's 11.9

Should have specified relative to Canon's lineup.  Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and so far (until the 1D X) has shown no inclination to change that.  The competition, of course, was behind on resolution.  You pick your horse and lay down your bet...
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

mkln

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #145 on: January 25, 2012, 02:55:36 PM »
This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about.  The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range.  It just seems like those changes are inevitable.  There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.

Has Canon never done anything foolish?  Honestly, I've heard lots of complaints about the 5DII...and almost none about it's sensor.  Excepting the new 1D X (no data yet), the 5DII has the least ISO noise and is effectively tied for the best DR.  Is it a huge stretch to think they'll just re-use that sensor?  I don't think so.  They might make slight improvements, maybe gapless microlenses, etc., but if it ain't broke...  Plus a re-use would save a lot of R&D costs...

well of course not. Canon makes incremental upgrades.
back in 2008 the 5D2 could be criticized because of its poor AF performance, sure. The sensor was the best in class.
but this does not mean that things haven't changed since.
The 5D2 has always had pattern-noise (banding) that basically make postproduction less flexible especially at ISO 800 or higher.
Sure, the quantity of noise is very good up to ISO 3200. But the quality is just not that good.
Now when the 5D2 had no competitors in terms of resolution and overall features of the sensor (considering that better sensors on a per-pixel basis had significantly lower resolution i.e. 12mp) then of course nobody complained about the sensor.

TODAY, however, there are higher resolution sensors that perform better even on a per-pixel basis.
Or anyway there are sensor with a lower resolution (but definitely more than 12mp) that perform way better in terms of DR and noise quality (some also in terms of noise quantity).
so TODAY I expect canon to deliver an outstanding sensor, just as the 5d2 sensor was originally.

The problem that I see is that Canon does not seem to care about DR that much, given that their top performing DSLR has an effective DR of 12 compared to Nikon, Pentax, Sony, Fujifilm, all with sensors well above 13 stops of DR.

Instead, given what Nikon has done with the D7000, if their D800 is as good an FF as the D7000 is an APS-C, Canon will not be a leader anymore.

I'm sure the 5D X will be an improvement (duh!), but my question is how much.

EYEONE

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #146 on: January 25, 2012, 02:58:42 PM »
the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
tied for the best DR? where? there are tens of cameras out there with 13+ stops of DR vs the 5D2's 11.9

Should have specified relative to Canon's lineup.  Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and so far (until the 1D X) has shown no inclination to change that.  The competition, of course, was behind on resolution.  You pick your horse and lay down your bet...

I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?
Canon 5D Mark III w/BG-E11, Canon 7D w/BG-E7: EF 24-70mm f.2.8L, EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS II, EF 40mm f2.8 Pancake STM, Speedlite 430EXII + 430EXI, Canon EOS 3

CarebbianTraveler

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #147 on: January 25, 2012, 02:59:08 PM »
Has Canon never done anything foolish?  Honestly, I've heard lots of complaints about the 5DII...and almost none about it's sensor.  Excepting the new 1D X (no data yet), the 5DII has the least ISO noise and is effectively tied for the best DR.  Is it a huge stretch to think they'll just re-use that sensor?  I don't think so.  They might make slight improvements, maybe gapless microlenses, etc., but if it ain't broke...  Plus a re-use would save a lot of R&D costs...

The 5D2's sensor is nearly 5 years old, first used in the 1DsIII. When they want to save development coasts, they adapt the one from the 1D X. But I don't believe in just a slight improvement. They will go bigger after 5 years.
On the other hand, this old sensor is still one of the best and competitors only have reached about an equal quality. This might be a hint why the mark III is not announced yet. There's no need for it yet. And yes, I would also prefer other improvements than the sensor.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #147 on: January 25, 2012, 02:59:08 PM »

mkln

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2012, 03:03:36 PM »

the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
tied for the best DR? where? there are tens of cameras out there with 13+ stops of DR vs the 5D2's 11.9

Should have specified relative to Canon's lineup.  Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and so far (until the 1D X) has shown no inclination to change that.  The competition, of course, was behind on resolution.  You pick your horse and lay down your bet...

Yes, you're right, but the gap between Canon and the competition on DR was not that large.
D700 gives 12.2, not a big deal compared to the 5d2.
the gap has widened though.
0.3 stops between the D700 and the 5D2, 2.4 stops between the D7000 and the 60D (sensor size difference not significant to explain this difference).
and while there is a 9mp difference between the D700 and the 5D2, there is a mere 2mp difference between D7000 and 60D.

I'll be happy with 13.5 stops for the new 5d

the sensor on the 5d is outdated in all respects compared to the competition.
tied for the best DR? where? there are tens of cameras out there with 13+ stops of DR vs the 5D2's 11.9

Should have specified relative to Canon's lineup.  Canon has been behind the competition in DR/ISO for years, and so far (until the 1D X) has shown no inclination to change that.  The competition, of course, was behind on resolution.  You pick your horse and lay down your bet...

I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?

I think the 2 are equivalent. but as shown above, we're not talking about a 1stop difference anymore.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14018
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2012, 03:12:21 PM »
I'm wondering what most people would more be able to recognize in a ordinary photography (not a test setup): 8 more MPs of resolution or ~1 stop of dynamic range?
I think the 2 are equivalent. but as shown above, we're not talking about a 1stop difference anymore.

Honestly, I don't think 'most people' would recognize either!  But I can tell you which would sound better as a marketing strategy...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 03:23:43 PM by neuroanatomist »
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark III (or other) Followup
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2012, 03:12:21 PM »