August 27, 2014, 11:31:21 AM

Author Topic: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H  (Read 26866 times)

unfocused

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2012, 02:15:16 PM »
i only wonder why they put so much effort in R&D of an 120 MP APS-H sensor?
why did they spend the R&D resources on APS-H and not FF or APS-C?

Perhaps because while there are other FF and APS-C sensors, Canon was the only one using APS-H - therefore, Canon's claim to having the only 120 MP APS-H sensor will likely stand unchallenged.

One explanation that always seemed logical to me was law enforcement and security cameras. High resolution combined with low-light sensitivity would greatly improve the success rate when the cameras snap a shot of your license plate as you roll through a stop light. APS-H might be the perfect tool for these cameras.
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dilbert

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2012, 03:42:32 PM »
i only wonder why they put so much effort in R&D of an 120 MP APS-H sensor?
why did they spend the R&D resources on APS-H and not FF or APS-C?

Perhaps because while there are other FF and APS-C sensors, Canon was the only one using APS-H - therefore, Canon's claim to having the only 120 MP APS-H sensor will likely stand unchallenged.

One explanation that always seemed logical to me was law enforcement and security cameras. High resolution combined with low-light sensitivity would greatly improve the success rate when the cameras snap a shot of your license plate as you roll through a stop light. APS-H might be the perfect tool for these cameras.

They don't need better cameras for reading license plates.

With current technology, you need to be doing in excess of 250km/h before the image blurs on one of those cameras and the chances are the environment around such cameras does not agree with such speeds.

With respect to cameras used for physical security, you're dreaming. The primary purpose of those cameras is not to record detail but to provide live video so that someone watching can notice something suspicious. On top of that, you've got to record it 24x7x365 - that's a lot of disk space even with resolution as low as 1080i.

Next is the size of the cameras used - they're completely at odds with the requirements of such a sensor.

Simply put, the 120MP APS-H sensor was chest beating.

dilbert

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2012, 03:48:02 PM »
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 

Why does everyone need to keep making up excuses?

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2012, 04:42:49 PM »
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 

Why does everyone need to keep making up excuses?

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)

Exactly. You da man, Dilbert!
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briansquibb

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »
The APS-H sensor is a misfit

I am glad to have a misfit in my camera. You will find that the owners of misfits will be mighty releuctant to move away to non misfits. The crop maybe only 1.3 but we manage as we also manage with AF at f/8 - and we get a real pro AF system unlike the wonderful APS-C owners.

Maybe a 27mps ff is the way ahead - but that is not coming in the 1 series until at least the 1DXII

I am sure we will manage until nirvana arrives  8) 8) 8)

juwi

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2012, 07:25:39 PM »

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Also developing chips is expensive. Refitting a chip design to fit another die size is expensive and probably most important: Running production for a chip is expensive. For different sensor sizes, different equipment is required, which takes away more precious space in fabs limiting overall capacity and driving up costs. This is probalby the number one reason for the 1Dx being full frame only. While in the Premium they saw these costs justifyable through other means, like lens sales and the prestige, it really isn't for the 7D line.

iP337

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2012, 07:53:56 PM »
Heh, I posted this same question in another thread at the same time.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2975.msg63304.html#msg63304

I thought it would be interesting if Canon made a 16:9 APS-H sensor, since back in the film days APS-H (known as APS-High Definition) was 16:9 for landscape photography instead of 3:2. If they did make this, then the HDMI out with a 16:9 sensor wouldn’t have those pillar bars or crop marks that the current 7D’s HDMI out has due to it’s 3:2 sensor, this could be the “clean” HDMI out camera we’ve been waiting for!  Nikon’s already doing a clean HDMI out with the D4, Canon has to do something and the current 7D almost already has it. (Though I was just reading that the D4 might have video issues at the sensor level even before compression; http://www.eoshd.com/content/6961/why-does-nikon-think-this-is-acceptable-video-quality-on-a-6000-flagship-dslr )

I always liked 16:9 photos, I had a Lumix LX1 and LX2 with a 16:9 sensor that not only cut into video easily but also displayed as nice wallpapers on computers or slideshows on TVs.  Of course I could always crop a 1.78 in post but my point is I don't mind 16:9 native photos, and they might help simulate that wide feeling someone complained the current 1.3 crop factor was lacking.  Come on Canon... GH2 did it! lol

I know it won't happend but I'm a dreamer, lol  :)

wickidwombat

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2012, 08:26:41 PM »
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 


Sorry but this makes NO sense, canon have already sold the 1d4s and made their money they dont give a damn what happens to used prices. in fact they would love for all the 1d4 users to trade down. more sales for them!
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iP337

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2012, 08:43:35 PM »

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Also developing chips is expensive. Refitting a chip design to fit another die size is expensive and probably most important: Running production for a chip is expensive. For different sensor sizes, different equipment is required, which takes away more precious space in fabs limiting overall capacity and driving up costs. This is probalby the number one reason for the 1Dx being full frame only. While in the Premium they saw these costs justifyable through other means, like lens sales and the prestige, it really isn't for the 7D line.

Though I doubt Canon would, I assume they could easily crop a 30.2×16.7mm APS-H area from the 18Mp 36x24mm sensor giving it a lower effective Mp count with a 1.3ish crop.  Come on Canon ...D4 and GH2 does it! lol

Tech manufacturing companies do stuff like this all the time; underclocking CPUs, cutting bit rates or disabling features to create a new but lesser product from the same production line to meet consumer demand. However I just don't think there's much demand for APS-H.

But if they do then Magic Lantern can re-enable the deactivated pixels and we can ruin Canon financially! MUAHAHAHA! Well maybe the 1Dx department at least, which would probably take the D4 and A900 with it.  OMG it's the DSLR bubble burst! ...You know it's coming.

smirkypants

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2012, 08:59:52 PM »
Why does everyone need to keep making up excuses?
The APS-H sensor is a misfit...
People keep making excuses because they want to have 1D4 IQ with a 7D body/price.

But what is missed is that technology marches forward and that you can probably now put 2+ year old H-sensor quality in a today C-sensor. Canon continues to invest in developing crop body lenses and there is a clear differentiation between the APS-C and FF.

Looking forward, there will probably be sensors that allow switching between FF and crop, but we aren't quite there yet. My guess is that it won't be that long, though.

I stand by my previous claim. If a new H sensor camera comes out, I will file down my 1D4 and eat the filings.

dilbert

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2012, 09:11:26 PM »
Why does everyone need to keep making up excuses?
The APS-H sensor is a misfit...
People keep making excuses because they want to have 1D4 IQ with a 7D body/price.

Let me fix that for you...

People keep making excuses because they want to have a 1D series camera at a 7D price.

And for that I think we have to blame/thank Nikon for putting sophisticated AF, etc, in lower end models.

gmrza

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2012, 09:27:57 PM »

And for that I think we have to blame/thank Nikon for putting sophisticated AF, etc, in lower end models.

And if Nikon ends up forcing Canon's hand in the competition game, then "Thank you Nikon!" - In that case, we all win.
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traveller

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2012, 03:38:23 PM »
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 


Sorry but this makes NO sense, canon have already sold the 1d4s and made their money they dont give a damn what happens to used prices. in fact they would love for all the 1d4 users to trade down. more sales for them!

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough as you seem to have missed my point: Canon want 1D MkIV owners to buy a 1D X and not be tempted to trade down to the 7D line.  In this happened, they would lose rather a lot of money...

TinaLovesCanon

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2012, 11:38:42 PM »
"Simply put, the 120MP APS-H sensor was chest beating."  Those bastards!  They should stop all R&D and just make the same cameras forever.

Joellll

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2012, 02:59:33 AM »
The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)
If Canon ever moves their whole APS-C save the xxxxD line to APS-H, it would definitely set Canon apart from other manufacturers.

Of course, that's a very wild thought, and they would have to introduce a new line of lens, but APS-H is still Canon's trump card. If they ever decide to go for a "bigger sensor, more depth of field, more happy customers" idea, well, the competitors will not be able to catch up immediately.