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Author Topic: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H  (Read 27304 times)

Terry Rogers

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2012, 08:20:08 PM »
I preface this by saying I am not a professional and have never used an APS-H camera before. And I'm sure Canon has had many discussions about the APS-H form factor cost/benefit analysis. But here is my two cents for what it's worth (about two cents).

I can see a continued market for an APS-H form factor in a weather sealed pro/semi pro level body that can autofocus to f8. The intended target for such a camera could be wildlife photographers. Wait... Canon has such a camera now in the 1D IV and have chosen to eliminate it with the 1D X! They must have a reason behind this move. Will the 1D X have better image quality than the 1D IV? Almost certainly. BUT, being full frame and "only" 18mp, it won't have the extra reach due to pixel density many who use super telephoto lenses desire.

Seeing no currently announced camera in Canon's lineup will autofocus at f8, my uninformed guess is we'll see a camera designed for the wildlife photographer so they can use their massive (and very expensive) 500 and 600mm f/4 lenses with a 2x teleconverter and maintain autofocus.

Maybe a 7d Mk II will autofocus at f8 and will become the go to body for wildlife photographers. Or maybe not. APS-H seems to be the compromize between 1.6 crop reach and ff image quality.

Again, my two uninformed cents.
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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2012, 08:20:08 PM »

wickidwombat

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2012, 10:43:46 PM »
If the 1Dx doesnt have f8 AF then I very much doubt any lower model will thats always been one of the big 1D differentiators.
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Terry Rogers

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2012, 11:41:04 PM »
If the 1Dx doesnt have f8 AF then I very much doubt any lower model will thats always been one of the big 1D differentiators.


If Canon decides not to include f8 autofocus on any other cameras, I suspect they will loose market share to nikon.
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nicku

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2012, 04:22:15 AM »
The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 ( with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.

5DMK3 certainly will have a full frame sensor, and 1DX is FF also. At this point the APS-H sensor is not in use  anymore ( except 1Dmk4 that will be discontinued eventually).

I believe this will be the smartest market move from canon.

moreorless

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2012, 05:36:22 AM »
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Indeed I'm not really seeing why people think Canon are likely to radically change the position of the existing 7D and xxD lines in the market rather than introduce a new line.

You look at their previous DSLR history and it seems much more likely that a new higher end line will be introduced which makes marketing sense. Why market the previously enthusiast xxD brand as a semi pro camera to reaplace the 7D? why market the semi pro 7D brand to replace the pro 1D brand?

I think you are right - the 70D will be as good as the 7D today - so what happens to the 7D? Perhaps they will drop it and make a 3d/6d semi pro sports range with a larger sensor with 18-24mps and top iso performance and 8fps.

Sensors are one area where size does count. There is a finite (financial) limit to how much you can use technology to squeeze out of a fixed size sensor, When it costs more to produce a little one instead of a better, lower tech, big one then the big one will win. PCs give us the clue - the processing power from a single processor has barely increased in the last 5 years - so they have switched to multi cores to provide the extra processing power. The NEX7 may have more mps but the IQ and iso performance is not significantly better.

The argument that higher density APS-C sensors gives better IQ is not born out in practice - look to the 1DX, 5D (and dare I say it - 12mp ff Nikons) are examples where low density sensors give significantly better IQ than  high density APS-C - and probably still do today.

As I said I think its more likely that they'd keep the 7D line and drop the xxD line while introducing a new ASPH line(3D?). The 7D right now is a much stronger brand than the 70D would be so I'd say it would make sense to keep it around even if its downgraded a little(or more likely stays still).

Quote from: jimmy156
Now there is a thought! If mirrorless CSC cameras take over the bottem end SLR market with M4/3 and APS-C sensors, as some seem to think they might, it would be an exciting (if very bold) move.

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 05:39:19 AM by moreorless »

briansquibb

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2012, 06:16:16 AM »

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

Does it matter that EF lens are slightly too big?? I dont see that as a problen - anymore than using L lens on APS-C

Make TSE lens work better is the plus side.

I like the idea of a mirrorless APS-H - it will be fun to see it outperform a 'proper' camera

foobar

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2012, 06:56:23 AM »
In my opinion, there is no way that the 7D Mark II will be APS-H.
And if there will ever be another APS-H camera by Canon, it will not replace an existing APS-C camera line.


The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 (with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.
How do you come to the conclusion that Nikon's new camera for which we don't have any specs will beat Canon's new camera for which we don't have any specs?
And while we're at it: What's your definition of "beating"? Being better in any conceivable way? Selling more units? Having the better image quality? The better AF? What's a better AF? More points overall or more cross-type points? IMHO the discussion is pointless at this point. We don't even have rumors to discuss, just wishlists.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 06:59:10 AM by foobar »

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2012, 06:56:23 AM »

nicku

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2012, 07:02:59 AM »
In my opinion, there is no way that the 7D Mark II will be APS-H.
And if there will ever be another APS-H camera by Canon, it will not replace an existing APS-C camera line.


The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 (with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.
How do you come to the conclusion that Nikon's new camera for which we don't have any specs will beat Canon's new camera for which we don't have any specs?
And while we're at it: What's your definition of "beating"? Being better in any conceivable way? Selling more units? Having the better image quality? The better AF? What's a better AF? More points overall or more cross-type points? IMHO the discussion is pointless at this point. We don't even have rumors to discuss, just wishlists.

I REFER ONLY TO THE CURRENT 7D ( not 7Dmk2). it has happened before.

foobar

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2012, 07:05:09 AM »
I REFER ONLY TO THE CURRENT 7D ( not 7Dmk2). it has happened before.
The current 7D? Okay... I think it's safe to assume that Nikon will be able to beat a 2,5 years old camera. ;)

neuroanatomist

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2012, 09:47:43 AM »
The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 ( with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.

14-15 MP final resolution and a broken reflex mirror after you mount the EF-S 10-22mm and take a shot at 10mm.  Sounds like a plan...
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briansquibb

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2012, 09:51:56 AM »
14-15 MP final resolution and a broken reflex mirror after you mount the EF-S 10-22mm and take a shot at 10mm.  Sounds like a plan...

hehehe  ;D ;D ;D

nicku

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2012, 11:30:38 AM »
The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 ( with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.

14-15 MP final resolution and a broken reflex mirror after you mount the EF-S 10-22mm and take a shot at 10mm.  Sounds like a plan...

who knows, this days technology...

moreorless

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2012, 12:34:51 PM »

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

Does it matter that EF lens are slightly too big?? I dont see that as a problen - anymore than using L lens on APS-C

Make TSE lens work better is the plus side.

I like the idea of a mirrorless APS-H - it will be fun to see it outperform a 'proper' camera

If you mean that there bigger than they need to be for ASPH on the 1D no I wouldnt say it matters but he obviously would on a mirrorless system. Whatever form a Canon mirrorless system takes I'd guess its likely to have a range of new lenses optimized for it and the potential to adapt EF lenses.

One advanatge I see with Canon holding off on an EVIL is that if/when they do deside to release one they'll be able to trump there rivals for sensor size.
T

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2012, 12:34:51 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2012, 02:46:45 PM »

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

Does it matter that EF lens are slightly too big?? I dont see that as a problen - anymore than using L lens on APS-C

Make TSE lens work better is the plus side.

I like the idea of a mirrorless APS-H - it will be fun to see it outperform a 'proper' camera

If you mean that there bigger than they need to be for ASPH on the 1D no I wouldnt say it matters but he obviously would on a mirrorless system. Whatever form a Canon mirrorless system takes I'd guess its likely to have a range of new lenses optimized for it and the potential to adapt EF lenses.

One advanatge I see with Canon holding off on an EVIL is that if/when they do deside to release one they'll be able to trump there rivals for sensor size.
T

For a mirrorless system with APS-H sensor not to use EF lens would be a total folly on Canon's behalf. With the EF-S mount there are only a few good lens (3 or 4?) whereas to have to redesign all the good EF lens for a new mount does not make commercial sense

kubelik

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2012, 02:55:16 PM »
I think that at this time last year, I would have bought off on the "7D Mark II can't be APS-H because it would screw up naming convention" argument, but I think Canon has shown they're thinking way beyond that already.  as a long-time participant on the forums, I feel we often give Canon too little credit for thinking aggressively outside of the box.  which is actually unwarranted, because Canon have become the industry leader by taking some major risks and creating genuine innovation.

for starters, Canon are the folks that came up with the APS-H in the first place and continued to use it well after everyone said they'd abandon the format.  secondly, Canon (at least claims to have) merged the 1D line, against everyone's cries of 'preposterous' and 'what will we do for high resolution?  the nikon d4x will be 38 gajillion pixels'.  third, Canon did stick a near-APS-C sensor into the G-series camera, while still calling it the G-series.  this broke two rules that everyone assumed that they would adhere to: a. that we can't change sensor size without changing the lineup name, and b. that canon's large-sensor compact would HAVE to be interchangeable lens because that's what everyone else was doing.

I don't see why Canon's next surprise won't be an APS-H 7D Mark II.  sure, people will bitch for a while about not being able to use their 10-22 ... until they buy their 16-35.  in reality, everyone with a 7D is probably already rolling with a few L lenses (even if it's the 70-200mm f/4 L), which will work just fine on an APS-H sensor.  raise your hands if you really bought a 7D so you could shoot wide format shots.  that's what I thought.

we always give Canon crud over being too stodgy and conservative but I feel as though WE, the consumer base, are actually the ones that are stodgy and conservative.  Canon is bringing some very cool product to the table this year and I think awesome things are in the future for the 5D and 7D lines.

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Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2012, 02:55:16 PM »