7D Mk2 ..... APS-H

[nicku]

I think that at this time last year, I would have bought off on the "7D Mark II can't be APS-H because it would screw up naming convention" argument, but I think Canon has shown they're thinking way beyond that already.  as a long-time participant on the forums, I feel we often give Canon too little credit for thinking aggressively outside of the box.  which is actually unwarranted, because Canon have become the industry leader by taking some major risks and creating genuine innovation.

for starters, Canon are the folks that came up with the APS-H in the first place and continued to use it well after everyone said they'd abandon the format.  secondly, Canon (at least claims to have) merged the 1D line, against everyone's cries of 'preposterous' and 'what will we do for high resolution?  the nikon d4x will be 38 gajillion pixels'.  third, Canon did stick a near-APS-C sensor into the G-series camera, while still calling it the G-series.  this broke two rules that everyone assumed that they would adhere to: a. that we can't change sensor size without changing the lineup name, and b. that canon's large-sensor compact would HAVE to be interchangeable lens because that's what everyone else was doing.

I don't see why Canon's next surprise won't be an APS-H 7D Mark II.  sure, people will bitch for a while about not being able to use their 10-22 ... until they buy their 16-35.  in reality, everyone with a 7D is probably already rolling with a few L lenses (even if it's the 70-200mm f/4 L), which will work just fine on an APS-H sensor.  raise your hands if you really bought a 7D so you could shoot wide format shots.  that's what I thought.

we always give Canon crud over being too stodgy and conservative but I feel as though WE, the consumer base, are actually the ones that are stodgy and conservative.  Canon is bringing some very cool product to the table this year and I think awesome things are in the future for the 5D and 7D lines.

kubelik - You read my thoughts.

[Ellen Schmidtee]

Canon did stick a near-APS-C sensor into the G-series camera, while still calling it the G-series.  this broke two rules that everyone assumed that they would adhere to: a. that we can't change sensor size without changing the lineup name, and b. that canon's large-sensor compact would HAVE to be interchangeable lens because that's what everyone else was doing.

As the G series does not have interchangeable lenses, owners don't lose any of their investment upgrading to a G series camera with a bigger sensor.

I don't see why Canon's next surprise won't be an APS-H 7D Mark II.  sure, people will bitch for a while about not being able to use their 10-22 ... until they buy their 16-35.

Except the 16-35mm on APS-H isn't as wide as 10-22mm on APS-C. I assume Canon would check how many owners of 7D are interested in ultra wide lenses and are unwilling to buy an APS-C body (say a 60D) to keep the ability.

[briansquibb]

Except the 16-35mm on APS-H isn't as wide as 10-22mm on APS-C. I assume Canon would check how many owners of 7D are interested in ultra wide lenses and are unwilling to buy an APS-C body (say a 60D) to keep the ability.

.... but the excellent 14mm is wider. So Canon would sell you the 16-35 and a 14mm or maybe the 8-15. Sounds like a good business plan.

The 7D has always been sold as a sports camera and certainly most of the complaints have been about the lack of reach of the 1.3 crop/ff. So not to move because of one uw lens is something that will not stop them - look a what has happened to the 1.3 wildlife shooters losing the 1.3 crop where there is REALLY no alternative lens solution

[Ellen Schmidtee]

Except the 16-35mm on APS-H isn't as wide as 10-22mm on APS-C. I assume Canon would check how many owners of 7D are interested in ultra wide lenses and are unwilling to buy an APS-C body (say a 60D) to keep the ability.

.... but the excellent 14mm is wider.

The EF 14mm would be a bit narrower than 18mm on FF. B&H lists the 16-35mm at ~U.S.$1,450, and the 14mm at ~U.S.$2,000. This is good money.

So Canon would sell you the 16-35 and a 14mm or maybe the 8-15. Sounds like a good business plan.

The EF 8-15mm is not rectilinear and is a stop slower. Canon might be happy to sell three lenses in place of one, the buyers, well, not so much.

The 7D has always been sold as a sports camera and certainly most of the complaints have been about the lack of reach of the 1.3 crop/ff. So not to move because of one uw lens is something that will not stop them

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

[briansquibb]

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

[Ellen Schmidtee]

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

[briansquibb]

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body

[EYEONE]

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body

It's not. EF-S lenses go too deep into the mount and the FF mirror would hit the back of the lens.

[briansquibb]

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body

It's not. EF-S lenses go too deep into the mount and the FF mirror would hit the back of the lens.

I appreciate that it cant be done at the moment but there maybe a way of moving the mirror?

[EYEONE]

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body

It's not. EF-S lenses go too deep into the mount and the FF mirror would hit the back of the lens.

I appreciate that it cant be done at the moment but there maybe a way of moving the mirror?

Well, I've said it before but I think it could be done if Canon used a mirror motion similar to the Sony A900. The mirror in the A900 is pushed up more than it is swung up. It moves forward very little during the operation. I doubt Canon would employ a new shutter design just to allow people to use EF-S lenses on FF cameras however.

[briansquibb]

I appreciate that it cant be done at the moment but there maybe a way of moving the mirror?

Well, I've said it before but I think it could be done if Canon used a mirror motion similar to the Sony A900. The mirror in the A900 is pushed up more than it is swung up. It moves forward very little during the operation. I doubt Canon would employ a new shutter design just to allow people to use EF-S lenses on FF cameras however.

Was thinking that top of the range could be a full frame sensor that allowed 1.6 users a seemless and painless migration path upwards. That would mean that xD and xxD  could move to ff and improve the IQ all round. It would also get round the issues with the EF-S and truly allow the APS-H to wither away as there would be no need for compromise.

However it would need more mps on the ff sensor. I suspect new mirror costs would be more than recouped by large scale economics

[Rocky]

The EF-S lenses angle of view cannot cover the whole APS-H snsoer, even after the mirror problem has been taken care of.

[neuroanatomist]

The EF-S lenses angle of view cannot cover the whole APS-H snsoer, even after the mirror problem has been taken care of.

That's why the suggestion was for a reduced MP final image, just the APS-C frame cropped from the larger sensor.  Nikon doesn't use short back focus lenses, and that's how their DX mode works.

[briansquibb]

The EF-S lenses angle of view cannot cover the whole APS-H snsoer, even after the mirror problem has been taken care of.

That's why the suggestion was for a reduced MP final image, just the APS-C frame cropped from the larger sensor.  Nikon doesn't use short back focus lenses, and that's how their DX mode works.

I was thinking the the firmware would give a reduced pixel sizes so as well as mRaw we might have cRaw and hRaw for APS-C view and APS-H view, perhaps even 2kRaw for HD landscape. Rather like an electric version of the old APS film camera.

[Vamp898]

To say the truth, i highly doubt that the 7D will get an APS-H, with that step Canon would bring two situations with that.

With crop-lenses (EF-S), you can only use it with reduce megapixels

With Full-Frame lenses, you dont have the full focal-lengh, there is always the crop-factor.

Sou you have the disadvantage of a smaller sensor on full-frame lenses and you have the disadvantage of the reduced MP with a crop-lense (without any advantage like better noise-handling. You just loose parts of your sensor).

Also Canons flagship would be the 60D again until 70D is released. You can not compare the 7D view-finder with the 60D view-finder and i doubt that the 70D view-finder and features will _that_ better to be the new 7D.

So Nikon takes the lead in the APS-C section with the D7000 and Sony with its Alpha 77 is close after it.

Where would Canon be? An 7D with an DIGIC5 Sensor is exactly what Canon needs in the APS-C Sector, using an APS-H sensor wouldnt be that clever at all.

Also it seems like canon dont want to use the APS-H anymore, at least the choise of merging the 1D and 1Ds look like that for me.