October 22, 2014, 06:00:54 AM

Author Topic: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E  (Read 12566 times)

Alan

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2014, 12:17:36 AM »
Hi, I got the TS-E 24L II a few months ago and really love this lens. The TS-E 17 is very similar and the wider angle of view would be amazing. But for proper landscapes I need filters and this is easier done with the TS-E 24L II. To use at least the lee filter holder on the TS-E 17mm you would have to adapt the lens cap by yourself because this lens has no filter threat.

Panorama shots are very easily done with the TS-E 17mm with the shift. Oft course the main application for the shift feature is architecture and it makes really a lot of fun with such a lens.
The tilt is quite useful to get an extended depth of field in landscape shots. The miniature effect is as big as with longer focal lengths.

BTW, do not get the Hcam lens adapter. It's too expensive and less useful than this one: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Neue-Adapter-von-Zoerk (you can buy it directly from Zoerk if you drop Mr. Zörkendorf an email (see his website). He will quote 220€ for it and it's available in the EU & USA). I got it myself and use it 90% of the time. This tripod collar is really useful to avoid parallax errors and because the larger hole in its base is directly located in the nodal point of the TS-E 17mm and TS-E 24L II. I put it onto a panorama plate and so I can use the shift and take panoramas. This not possible with any other lens + tripod collar combination with a Canon DSLR. Such a shifted panroma is useful for architecture and also for lanscapes.
Sorry, everyone, for resurrecting an old topic.

@RobertG
Robert, could you tell me what kinda head mount the Zörk adapter uses. Is it the Arca-Swiss type or the Manfrotto quick release type? Thank you in advance.

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2014, 12:17:36 AM »

Alan

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2014, 03:00:54 PM »
Oh boy, looks like I won't be buying Zoerk's collar any time soon. I just called them to find out the price; it's 699 USD! No thanks.

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2014, 03:49:06 PM »
I can't believe I spent so much money on one lens, but I did it.  :)  We shall see how well it performs next week in training while I learn all of it's abilities.  And then next month for real.
You will not regret it. It is an amazing lens. I use it for some architecture work, but primarily for nature/landscape. The only problem will be that you will start thinking of the 24mm, which may have even more interesting areas of use, so you better start saving ;)
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privatebydesign

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2014, 05:08:07 PM »
Hi, I got the TS-E 24L II a few months ago and really love this lens. The TS-E 17 is very similar and the wider angle of view would be amazing. But for proper landscapes I need filters and this is easier done with the TS-E 24L II. To use at least the lee filter holder on the TS-E 17mm you would have to adapt the lens cap by yourself because this lens has no filter threat.

Panorama shots are very easily done with the TS-E 17mm with the shift. Oft course the main application for the shift feature is architecture and it makes really a lot of fun with such a lens.
The tilt is quite useful to get an extended depth of field in landscape shots. The miniature effect is as big as with longer focal lengths.

BTW, do not get the Hcam lens adapter. It's too expensive and less useful than this one: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Neue-Adapter-von-Zoerk (you can buy it directly from Zoerk if you drop Mr. Zörkendorf an email (see his website). He will quote 220€ for it and it's available in the EU & USA). I got it myself and use it 90% of the time. This tripod collar is really useful to avoid parallax errors and because the larger hole in its base is directly located in the nodal point of the TS-E 17mm and TS-E 24L II. I put it onto a panorama plate and so I can use the shift and take panoramas. This not possible with any other lens + tripod collar combination with a Canon DSLR. Such a shifted panroma is useful for architecture and also for lanscapes.

What a ridiculous thing.

First, it is very easy to shift stitch without parallax, (though the occasions it is an issue are minute) just move the body in the arca swiss style clamp the opposite amount of shift, done. Note, the amount of parallax shown in this illustration is not from this setup, they had to use a field camera setup to create the problem to solve. http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html

But more importantly, how in the hell are you supposed to get accurate tilt and swing movements with the lens clamped to the tripod?

That has to be the stupidest way to spend money on an already expensive lens, ever, Canon go to the trouble of building a tilt shift lens and you spend money converting it to a shift only lens!

As for filter use on the 17 TS-E, I use the Fotodiox Wonderpana system, it is the only system I know that allows unrestricted shift movement. Note this includes a CPL http://www.amazon.com/WonderPana-145-Essentials-Kit-Aspherical/dp/B00AUK945M , they also do a system add on for grads http://www.fotodioxpro.com/wonderpana-66-freearc-kit-rotating-filter-system-holder-only.html .
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 05:14:23 PM by privatebydesign »
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Alan

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 02:04:29 AM »
What a ridiculous thing.

First, it is very easy to shift stitch without parallax, (though the occasions it is an issue are minute) just move the body in the arca swiss style clamp the opposite amount of shift, done. Note, the amount of parallax shown in this illustration is not from this setup, they had to use a field camera setup to create the problem to solve. http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html
The point of using a tilt-shift lens for panos is its straightforward shift capability. Otherwise, you might as well use a regular lens + pan head and just move the body in the arca swiss style clamp the opposite amount of shift.



But more importantly, how in the hell are you supposed to get accurate tilt and swing movements with the lens clamped to the tripod?

That has to be the stupidest way to spend money on an already expensive lens, ever, Canon go to the trouble of building a tilt shift lens and you spend money converting it to a shift only lens!
How? Easy: just tilt and shift your camera just like Schneider Kreuznach:




« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 02:06:30 AM by Alan »

privatebydesign

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2014, 08:34:32 AM »
What a ridiculous thing.

First, it is very easy to shift stitch without parallax, (though the occasions it is an issue are minute) just move the body in the arca swiss style clamp the opposite amount of shift, done. Note, the amount of parallax shown in this illustration is not from this setup, they had to use a field camera setup to create the problem to solve. http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html
The point of using a tilt-shift lens for panos is its straightforward shift capability. Otherwise, you might as well use a regular lens + pan head and just move the body in the arca swiss style clamp the opposite amount of shift.



But more importantly, how in the hell are you supposed to get accurate tilt and swing movements with the lens clamped to the tripod?

That has to be the stupidest way to spend money on an already expensive lens, ever, Canon go to the trouble of building a tilt shift lens and you spend money converting it to a shift only lens!
How? Easy: just tilt and shift your camera just like Schneider Kreuznach:






Alan,

Buy the sounds of your reply you have never actually done any of this.

First, show me an image taken with the 17 TS-E that was ruined by parallax due to shift stitching the lens and not the body, I have thousands of interiors where there are things close and far from the camera and none do, it can be done, but the vast majority of the time it just isn't an issue.

Second, even when it is an issue using the technique I linked to above 100% works, if you can't see that shifting the camera in a clamp accurately emulates a bigger sensor, in exactly the same way as holding the lens and shifting the camera, then we are on different pages, it is exactly the same technique just done in a different way. Mine costs nothing and does not negatively impact lens functionality, unlike the Zoerk "solution". To be sure, both techniques are totally different to rotating the camera with a regular lens and pano head, the "traditional" way panos are created.

Third, my serious question was "how in the hell are you supposed to get accurate tilt and swing movements with the lens clamped to the tripod?" I am asking specifically about tilt and swing, not shift. If you don't know or understand the difference between front tilt/swing and rear tilt/swing I suggest you go read a field camera book, if you want control of your plane of focus without inducing perspective distortions then front tilt/swing is critical. To be able to do that with one of these lens clamps you would need a very nicely geared head, something along the Arca Cube line, certainly the Schneider Kreuznach illustration you posted with a ball head is a farce. Lets not forget, one of the biggest issues with the Canon TS-E lenses is the tilt/swing gearing, fractions of a degree make big differences, especially with a 17mm. To clarify, using front tilt/swing has no effect on perspective, using rear tilt/swing does, they are fundamentally different movements and the expensive lens clamps limit your accurate use of the far more useful front tilt/swing.

Fourth, the 17 TS-E is very unusual in the tilt shift arena (along with the 24 though it is not as extreme) it is a retrofocus tilt shift, this has a huge, and counter intuative, impact on body alignment when using extreme tilt and swing.
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quod

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2014, 12:49:19 PM »
The filters are the main reason to go with the 24 TS-E.  But I've started doing HDR photos, so some of that can be simulated in post processing. 
There is a DIY ND grad holder that you can make for use with the TS-E 17mm.  Here is a link about it:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1081875

I made one.  It limits the tilt and shift functionality somewhat (it causes vignetting), but it works.

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2014, 12:49:19 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2014, 10:45:06 PM »
The filters are the main reason to go with the 24 TS-E.  But I've started doing HDR photos, so some of that can be simulated in post processing. 
There is a DIY ND grad holder that you can make for use with the TS-E 17mm.  Here is a link about it:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1081875

I made one.  It limits the tilt and shift functionality somewhat (it causes vignetting), but it works.

I already posted a link to the Fotodiox Wonderpana filter holder system that is designed for the 17 TS-E and allows unrestricted shift and at least 4 degrees of tilt at the same time with no vignetteing.

P.S. If you go to page 7 of your Fred Miranda link you will see my posts back to here.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 10:47:41 PM by privatebydesign »
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quod

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 08:13:29 PM »
I already posted a link to the Fotodiox Wonderpana filter holder system that is designed for the 17 TS-E and allows unrestricted shift and at least 4 degrees of tilt at the same time with no vignetteing.

P.S. If you go to page 7 of your Fred Miranda link you will see my posts back to here.
The Wonderpana system looks great, but the cost is the issue for me.  The DIY is about $100.

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2014, 08:42:33 PM »
I already posted a link to the Fotodiox Wonderpana filter holder system that is designed for the 17 TS-E and allows unrestricted shift and at least 4 degrees of tilt at the same time with no vignetteing.

P.S. If you go to page 7 of your Fred Miranda link you will see my posts back to here.
The Wonderpana system looks great, but the cost is the issue for me.  The DIY is about $100.

quod,

We are talking about a $2,200 specialised lens, filters cost money! Besides the kit I linked to includes a 145mm CPL, most CPL's that size cost more than that alone. Also, the DIY "solution" restricts functionality of your $2,200 lens, after doing this for many years I have realised that sometimes it is much cheaper to spend the extra money.

Learn from my mistakes  ;)
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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2014, 08:45:07 PM »
I already posted a link to the Fotodiox Wonderpana filter holder system that is designed for the 17 TS-E and allows unrestricted shift and at least 4 degrees of tilt at the same time with no vignetteing.

P.S. If you go to page 7 of your Fred Miranda link you will see my posts back to here.
The Wonderpana system looks great, but the cost is the issue for me.  The DIY is about $100.

The TS-e 17L is an expensive lens...and you are worrying about the cost of the adaptor?
Why spend money on the DIY adaptor when it inhibits the range of the tilt and shift...come on, why buy a TS-e 17L in the first place? Why not save even more money and get a 16-35IIL instead?

quod

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2014, 05:53:41 AM »
The TS-e 17L is an expensive lens...and you are worrying about the cost of the adaptor?
Why spend money on the DIY adaptor when it inhibits the range of the tilt and shift...come on, why buy a TS-e 17L in the first place? Why not save even more money and get a 16-35IIL instead?
No need for sarcasm.  I built the DIY before there was a Wonderpana.  I rarely use it.  It works.  Give it a rest, guys.

EDIT:
One other point worth noting is that the benefits of an ND grad can be derived in software.  Before I had my adapter, I bracketed shots and used the ND grad feature in Adobe RAW to replicate the use of an ND grad.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 10:56:22 AM by quod »

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 07:39:13 PM »
The TS-e 17L is an expensive lens...and you are worrying about the cost of the adaptor?
Why spend money on the DIY adaptor when it inhibits the range of the tilt and shift...come on, why buy a TS-e 17L in the first place? Why not save even more money and get a 16-35IIL instead?
No need for sarcasm.  I built the DIY before there was a Wonderpana.  I rarely use it.  It works.  Give it a rest, guys.

EDIT:
One other point worth noting is that the benefits of an ND grad can be derived in software.  Before I had my adapter, I bracketed shots and used the ND grad feature in Adobe RAW to replicate the use of an ND grad.

I don't use ND grads either. I haven't used an ND grad for around 5 years and sold my entire Lee collection to fund a 16-35 II L. The reason I use  wondapana, is for the CPL and ND filter options. If I want to blend two exposures, often I want the sky or sea to be at a specific shutter speed and aperture setting. Often this can only be achieved with a set of ND filters, a tripod and a bit of careful metering.
 

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 07:39:13 PM »

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2014, 08:46:38 PM »
@RobertG
Robert, could you tell me what kinda head mount the Zörk adapter uses. Is it the Arca-Swiss type or the Manfrotto quick release type? Thank you in advance.

Alan,
The Zörk adapter has no specific head mount. It offers just a 3/8" mount and a 1/4" mount. See http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=8286.msg151511 I attached a cheap quick release plate to it with the 3/8" mount.

To say the truth I seldom use the Zörk adapter nowadays. A Markins L-bracket is attached to my 5D II for while now and I'm lazy, so I just put the camera onto the panorama plate. For landscape panoramas it works quite well because Kolor Autopano Giga makes really good job.
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RobertG.

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2014, 08:56:49 PM »
...

EDIT:
One other point worth noting is that the benefits of an ND grad can be derived in software.  Before I had my adapter, I bracketed shots and used the ND grad feature in Adobe RAW to replicate the use of an ND grad.

I often use the ND grad option offered by Lightroom but still carry a big selection of ND grads and reverse ND grads with me. Post processing has its limits, especially with Canon sensors. ND grads can make it much easier. See the attached picture, which I took recently with the help of the comination of a 3 stop reverse ND grad and a 2 stop reverse ND grad. No HDR technique was used but in post processsing I used the digital grad ND offered by Lightroom as well.

5DII | TS-E 17 mm L | TS-E 24 mm II | EF 35mm f1.4 | TS-E 45mm | EF 50mm f1.4 |
Tamron SP 24-70 f2.8 | EF 85mm f1.8 | TS-E 90mm f2.8 | EF 70-300mm F4.0-5.6 L

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Re: Help me justify the 17mm TS-E
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2014, 08:56:49 PM »