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Author Topic: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??  (Read 20066 times)

elflord

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2012, 01:53:26 PM »

The Nikon D3s being only 3/4 of a stop better then the 5DmkII seems low.  If your calculation are right, the hill the climb is much less then I thought...but I recall seeing some very high ISO sample from the D3s that just destroy the 5DmkII at 12800 and above.  Not sure how these charts works, but something is weird here...

one thing to keep in mind is that this test only shows how well the two cameras do at 3200 and 1800 ISO. DxOMark tests how high you can crank the ISO and maintain a certain level of IQ (I think defined in terms of dynamic range and noise)

It doesn't say anything about how well they hold up above that (how much they lose if you turn ISO higher), and there's no reason the curves should be parallel. One example is that medium format cameras do very well at low ISO but not as well at high ISO as full frames.

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2012, 01:53:26 PM »

tt

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2012, 01:57:24 PM »
Less than 2 weeks before we find out from the embargo lifted 1DX photos being allowed on Feb 7 if the rumor's right

cfargo

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2012, 02:02:05 PM »
canon will get f£$ked by interviews like this one, well all is dommed now, good luck guys im jumping to the Nikon boat.

Good luck getting your Nikon serviced locally.

elflord

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2012, 03:43:59 PM »
A few points:

1. According to DXO Mark, the D3s reaches its "acceptable" signal to noise value of 30dB at 3253 ISO (whilst keeping dynamic range at >9 EV and colour depth at 18bits), whereas the 5D MkII achieves this at 1815 ISO.  So 3253/1815 = ~1.79; i.e. the D3s is 79% better than the 5D MkII, which is basically just over 3/4 of a stop. 

2. Nikon is implying that the D4 manages to achieve the same high ISO performance as the D3s, but with a higher pixel count.  Thus, the 1D X would need to be between 3/4 and 1 stop better than the 5D MkII to match the D4. 

3. I've got a suspicion that the D3s 'cooks' its raw files at high ISO, based upon the SNR 18% graph from DXO Mark having a strange kink in it after ~ISO 9787 (also note the performance of the D3). 

Anyone want to check these calculations?

checking the other graphs, the same pattern holds up in the other graphs -- the D3s widens the gap at high ISOs in measures such as dynamic range, tonal range and color sensitivity.

briansquibb

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2012, 07:32:56 PM »

The Nikon D3s being only 3/4 of a stop better then the 5DmkII seems low.  If your calculation are right, the hill the climb is much less then I thought...but I recall seeing some very high ISO sample from the D3s that just destroy the 5DmkII at 12800 and above.  Not sure how these charts works, but something is weird here...

The 5DII seems to manage 3200 well, anything more and IQ/noise gets worse quickly.

Not so with the 1D4 which seems to top out at 12800

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2012, 09:48:48 PM »
A few points:

1. According to DXO Mark, the D3s reaches its "acceptable" signal to noise value of 30dB at 3253 ISO (whilst keeping dynamic range at >9 EV and colour depth at 18bits), whereas the 5D MkII achieves this at 1815 ISO.  So 3253/1815 = ~1.79; i.e. the D3s is 79% better than the 5D MkII, which is basically just over 3/4 of a stop. 

2. Nikon is implying that the D4 manages to achieve the same high ISO performance as the D3s, but with a higher pixel count.  Thus, the 1D X would need to be between 3/4 and 1 stop better than the 5D MkII to match the D4. 

3. I've got a suspicion that the D3s 'cooks' its raw files at high ISO, based upon the SNR 18% graph from DXO Mark having a strange kink in it after ~ISO 9787 (also note the performance of the D3). 

Anyone want to check these calculations?

checking the other graphs, the same pattern holds up in the other graphs -- the D3s widens the gap at high ISOs in measures such as dynamic range, tonal range and color sensitivity.

There is little doubt, its a trade off, high resolution and ability to crop versus low resolution and better high ISO performance.  I wonder how a 22mp 5D MK III at $2800 will compare against the 36MP D800 at 3000. 

There will be those who like the higher resolution, and those who like the better high ISO sensitivity, its either-or.

JR

  • Posts: 1229
Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2012, 10:04:33 PM »

The Nikon D3s being only 3/4 of a stop better then the 5DmkII seems low.  If your calculation are right, the hill the climb is much less then I thought...but I recall seeing some very high ISO sample from the D3s that just destroy the 5DmkII at 12800 and above.  Not sure how these charts works, but something is weird here...

one thing to keep in mind is that this test only shows how well the two cameras do at 3200 and 1800 ISO. DxOMark tests how high you can crank the ISO and maintain a certain level of IQ (I think defined in terms of dynamic range and noise)

It doesn't say anything about how well they hold up above that (how much they lose if you turn ISO higher), and there's no reason the curves should be parallel. One example is that medium format cameras do very well at low ISO but not as well at high ISO as full frames.

I never realized that.  I guess it goes to show how we need to learn to read behind spec sometime to get the full story!  Indeed Nikon must do something to the very High ISO to make it look good - I just hope someone at Canon figured this out as well for their next line of EOS bodies !!!
1DX, 24mm f1.4L II, 35mm f1.4L, 50mm f1.2L, 85mm f1.2L II, 135mm f2L, 24-70mm f2.8L II, 70-200mm f2.8L IS II :  D800, D4, and a whole bunch of Nikon lenses

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2012, 10:04:33 PM »

JR

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2012, 10:07:52 PM »

The Nikon D3s being only 3/4 of a stop better then the 5DmkII seems low.  If your calculation are right, the hill the climb is much less then I thought...but I recall seeing some very high ISO sample from the D3s that just destroy the 5DmkII at 12800 and above.  Not sure how these charts works, but something is weird here...

The 5DII seems to manage 3200 well, anything more and IQ/noise gets worse quickly.

Not so with the 1D4 which seems to top out at 12800

It is so interesting you mention this Brian because while indeed everyone claim the 5DmkII to be better at low light then the 1DIV (I guess based on DxO chart for example) I always found the 1DIV (whenever I can borough one) to be very good at very high ISO.  Because I dont own both bodies, I never knew if it was the shooting environment at that time that made it look good (I am refering to ISO 6400 and above) or because it was the 1DIV...

1DX, 24mm f1.4L II, 35mm f1.4L, 50mm f1.2L, 85mm f1.2L II, 135mm f2L, 24-70mm f2.8L II, 70-200mm f2.8L IS II :  D800, D4, and a whole bunch of Nikon lenses

JR

  • Posts: 1229
Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2012, 10:11:44 PM »

There is little doubt, its a trade off, high resolution and ability to crop versus low resolution and better high ISO performance.  I wonder how a 22mp 5D MK III at $2800 will compare against the 36MP D800 at 3000. 

There will be those who like the higher resolution, and those who like the better high ISO sensitivity, its either-or.

At one point Nikon Rumors had some ISO sample of the D800 on their site.  While it was unclear if they were real of fake, the sample looked much worst then the current 5DmkII at ISO performance.  For my use 21MP is more then enought for my croping need, so my trade off will be better ISO performance once I have a machine with 18-21MP...

1DX, 24mm f1.4L II, 35mm f1.4L, 50mm f1.2L, 85mm f1.2L II, 135mm f2L, 24-70mm f2.8L II, 70-200mm f2.8L IS II :  D800, D4, and a whole bunch of Nikon lenses

Woody

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2012, 10:21:51 PM »
Personally, I just process comparable RAW images from the cameras of interest using the best software out there and compare afterwards. That is most relevant for me as it is based on software I like to work with.

Ricku

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2012, 12:28:21 AM »
Improvement only in jpeg files does not matter to me and MANY other photographers, because we only shoot in RAW.

aj1575

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2012, 02:01:33 AM »
canon will get f£$ked by interviews like this one, well all is dommed now, good luck guys im jumping to the Nikon boat.
The grass is always greener on the other side....

....or do you think that a chance from brand A to brand B will really improve your pictures?

briansquibb

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Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2012, 02:54:44 AM »

The Nikon D3s being only 3/4 of a stop better then the 5DmkII seems low.  If your calculation are right, the hill the climb is much less then I thought...but I recall seeing some very high ISO sample from the D3s that just destroy the 5DmkII at 12800 and above.  Not sure how these charts works, but something is weird here...

The 5DII seems to manage 3200 well, anything more and IQ/noise gets worse quickly.

Not so with the 1D4 which seems to top out at 12800

It is so interesting you mention this Brian because while indeed everyone claim the 5DmkII to be better at low light then the 1DIV (I guess based on DxO chart for example) I always found the 1DIV (whenever I can borough one) to be very good at very high ISO.  Because I dont own both bodies, I never knew if it was the shooting environment at that time that made it look good (I am refering to ISO 6400 and above) or because it was the 1DIV...

I think the 5DII focusses better in very low light but the image is bettter from the 1D4 at 6400 and 12800 (which is not that low, just a room light level)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon 1D-X: "Full" 2-Stops ISO Improvment...only in JPEG??
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2012, 02:54:44 AM »