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Author Topic: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?  (Read 25232 times)

Heidi

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2012, 09:40:50 AM »
I hope I'm not too late to the party.
I've been visiting Canon Rumors as long as the site has existed, but finally felt compelled to contribute my 2ยข.

One of my first cameras, the Nikon F inherited from my grandfather, came with the standard and waist level finder.  Nikon F series had interchangeable viewfinders (yes, the prism at the top came off with the viewfinder).  I loved the waist level finder especially when taking portraits because I could maintain face to face connection with the subject without having the camera get in the way.  It made the subject feel more at ease.
Also, one could literally 'shoot from the hip' while being able to see what one was framing.

My first foray into digital camera was the Canon G2 which has the articulating screen, and it was almost natural for me to use the screen in the position that mimicked waist level finder.  It could also be used like a standard LCD on many of today's high-end DSLRs or flipped to protect the screen when not in use.  When swiveled 180, it helped compose and take self portraits or let the subject see what I saw through the viewfinder.

I understand that today's DSLR is much more complex internally than Nikon F and switching the viewfinder in a similar fashion is technically near-impossible.  Hence, I would love to see an articulating screen appear on serious hobbyist cameras such as 7D and 5D.  That being said, the G2 gave up its ghost due to articulating screen failing - first, when flipped 180, the picture never rotated so I had to deal with upside down images.  Then the LCD died.  It is a weak link due to its being a complex moving part.

If the durability issue can be resolved, I'm all up for the articulating screen - it's too bad it carries a 'non-serious photographer' stigma in the DSLR community, but recalling the days of film cameras, it is the closest thing to interchangeable viewfinders serious SLRs such as Nikon F series had to offer.

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2012, 09:40:50 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2012, 09:53:13 AM »
Perhaps you would like to demonstrate shooting a bird in flight, handheld with a 400 f/2.8 using LiveView? Or any shot with even a lightweight 300 f/2.8 with arms at full length.

OK perhaps that is too much for you - try a portrait with a 85 1.2@ f/1.2
As far as I can tell, no adherent of articulating screens have stated that they use the articulating screen every time on every shot.

and neither have the users of the viewfinder said they dont use LiveView

Yes, in fact you did.  Let me quote you again:

Live View AF is useless that is why we dont use them

 :( :( :( :( :(   Sorry - was a grumpy old man this morning  :( :( :( :(

Lyra Video Productions

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2012, 10:17:24 AM »
Anyone who says you can't be a real photographer AND use a swivel screen (at all) is just being a luddite as far as I can tell (even if you're not being entirely serious  :) ).  And if you're making the argument that a swivel screen is more prone to break then just don't use it.  Keep it in one position against the body and don't worry about swiveling.

Of course you can't be a real photographer and use a swivel screen and I'm being entirely serious  :P just ask @briansquibb who noted that Live View AF is useless (it isn't useless by the way).  Oh and you when you said...

Sure, live view is horrible for most photography situations but it works fine for some things (and video, of course).

What do you mean by "horrible" and what do you mean by "most"?  That's the trouble with making such bold statements, they just tend to not really be the case.  Did you just look down on those who find it useful and use it for a lot of photography situations?

No, of course I'm not "looking down" on people who use LV--like I said, I use it sometimes (and have to use it for video).  By horrible, I only meant that it's obvious that focusing is currently FAR less helpful for most shooting situations.  However, shooting things like landscape, etc. it works just fine.  Sorry, I thought it was widely accepted that LV just doesn't work as well (fast, accurate, etc) for many shooting situations compared to using the viewfinder.  If you want to shoot solely on LV, go right ahead, but you're going to have more trouble shooting some types of things.

awinphoto

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2012, 10:33:36 AM »
Joining the conversation late, but for what it's worth, when shooting product photography for clients and doing focus critical shots, i use LV 90% of the time, especially when i'm focus stacking...  But when i'm out on location hand-holding and such, I hardly ever use LV.  It's too cumbersome for me in that situation.  As far as articulating screens... It would have to be done right and be solid like a rock, like the rest of the body.  There are times, even in the studio, I try to get some obscure angle and Without a ladder or some other method to get me physically higher than the camera, it's hard for me to focus using the VF or LV... so it COULD come in handy in those situations... As for as using it hand-holding shooting out in the wild, I doubt I'd ever use the flip screen.  I have come from an upbringing of using MF and LF cameras and looking down into the camera like the old kowas and bronica's, but I dont really relish those memories very much.  Not to say i'm right or wrong, it just is how i would use such a camera.  And if it makes the camera weaker, instable, or more vulnerable when it comes to weather sealing issues then i'm not interested. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L IS, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 2 430EX 2's and a partridge in a pear tree.

Meh

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »
@LyraVideo:  Live View uses contrast detect AF which is slower and can't track focus but it can be more accurate than phase detect and doesn't require calibration.  So there are pros and cons.  Live View AF isn't horrible, in fact it's quite good in some cases and is ok in many other cases.  For fast moving subjects, not so much.

@briansquibb:  Ok


Perhaps I was too critical yesterday on choice of words in a few posts.

nikkito

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2012, 11:16:23 AM »
I once used a 60d and my hate towards flip out screens almost dissapeared. I do like to take pictures from unusual angles and I don't have a problem with lying on the ground to achieve a shot, but this screen made it easier.

All that said, I still don't need one on my 5dII. I guess that's just one thing you may find totally cool at the beginning but then you just forget it.

My camera has already 107.000 shots, I guess I might have shot 500 with live view. So maybe its just that i dislike live view, making this flip screen unnecessary.

 :)
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thepancakeman

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2012, 11:22:11 AM »
:( :( :( :( :(   Sorry - was a grumpy old man this morning  :( :( :( :(
Perhaps I was too critical yesterday on choice of words in a few posts.

What???  Okay, where am I and what did you guys do with the real internet??  Everyone knows that people don't actually apologize and try to be civil on the internet!   ;D

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2012, 11:22:11 AM »

briansquibb

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2012, 11:40:43 AM »
:( :( :( :( :(   Sorry - was a grumpy old man this morning  :( :( :( :(
Perhaps I was too critical yesterday on choice of words in a few posts.

What???  Okay, where am I and what did you guys do with the real internet??  Everyone knows that people don't actually apologize and try to be civil on the internet!   ;D

It must be unusual to see grown ups on the internet  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Lyra Video Productions

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2012, 06:26:03 PM »
@LyraVideo:  Live View uses contrast detect AF which is slower and can't track focus but it can be more accurate than phase detect and doesn't require calibration.  So there are pros and cons.  Live View AF isn't horrible, in fact it's quite good in some cases and is ok in many other cases.  For fast moving subjects, not so much.


Thanks for the info, Meh.  I didn't realize LV could be more accurate.  Good to know.

bigblue1ca

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2012, 08:32:45 PM »
I have a 60D and I've used the flip out LCD and Live View on maybe ten occasions in the past year. While some may say it's a gimmick, on the times that I've used it I've found it very handy and it has made framing the shots I used it for considerably easier. 

Related to that...  I'm planning on buying the 1DX* whenever it's finally available to the average Joe.  When I was still deciding and looking at the specs for the 1DX, I thought wow it's an amazing camera that will do what I need it to do, but at the same time I had a brief thought of it's too bad I wouldn't have access to a flip out LCD on it (for obvious reasons, weather seal/toughness).  :) 

I view my flip out LCD like the 4x4 on my SUV, I maybe only use it a few times a winter, but it sure is nice to have when I need it.

*Unless the 5DIII or mythical 3D come out and meet my requirements.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 08:35:45 PM by bigblue1ca »

Ryusui

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2012, 09:10:35 PM »
I've been doing an increasing number of self-shots lately for a personal project and having a flip-out screen for each of them would have been immensely helpful.  Especially last night when I was holding five pounds of camera gear straight up in the air.  After a half hour of trying to get the shot I was after, it got a little tiring.

If a flip-out screen could be done well on a 5D without any sacrafice, I'd welcome it.

unruled

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2012, 04:36:31 AM »
I use LV when I do tripod work, ESP. at night. or sometimes if I'm sneaking a shot (street photography).
so while its only a few times per year, I'm glad I can do it.

archangelrichard

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2012, 05:30:48 PM »
Jerry

to put it simply - you are using the flip out for FRAMING and letting the camera AUTO-FOCUS while most still photographers will tell you that isn't photography, you need to get more involved in focusing / aperture preview / etc.

Most photo classes start with all manual cameras to force students to understand the issues involved in "available light" photography, the triad of ISO / Aperture / Shutter speed and that photography is the art of light and shadow

The Artists see you as a "point and shoot"er, a "snapshot" photographer - you are using an expensive camera like an "instamatic" or Brownie non-focusing camera and not controlling the shot

Video works that way, you watch many movies and they aren't that sharp a focus, often because people MOVE and get out of focus so you have to autofocus, cross your fingers and pray it is fast enough

It's not you, personally; but rather what you are doing that still photographers are sneering at (in my head I can hear Pete Seeger's "Little Boxes" - "Little boxes, on the hillside; little boxes made of tacky tacky; little boxes, little boxes, little boxes, all the same" referring to the houses / townhouses in a housing tract and this is the same idea the little boxes being snapshots rather than photographs

See the difference is quality

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2012, 05:30:48 PM »

JerryBruck

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2012, 09:33:13 PM »
@archangelrichard

Actually I've been focusing manually for some time, and lately trying to do it for even for street with my one long prime.  Boy that can be frustrating, but rewarding too, and a pleasure to be free of Canon "servo" or whatever its called.  Live view comes in very handy for manual when there's more time and for razor-thin DOF more often than that, and for different reasons an articulating screen can be a big help here too.  My plan - my hope, actually, the cost considered -- is to switch to manual-only matched primes since pretty good ones can come cheap in the no-autofocus category and because video by its nature is manual focus only.   My 60D has been set to M since it came out of the box and I experiment some against the limits of that unholy trinity you refer to, which I've struggled with off and on across more than fifty years, though I've never darkened the doorway of a photo academy.  Available light -- alas I've always thought that was the only authentic kind, and now in my old age realize the importance of flash, no easy thing to get control of!

As to the movies -- there are movies and there are movies.  Whether or not Artists lurk on canonrumors is not something I'm privy to.  I've really enjoyed the varied and open responses to this thread, it's been very educational for me, and the people seem nice, I haven't sensed any animosity to me personally, perhaps I'm just obtuse.  I really do appreciate the effort you made to explain things to me though.  Obviously there's a lot of emotion loose on this subject, and it's occasioned by more than just "getting the shot".

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Re: Flip out displays -- why the resentment?
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2012, 09:33:13 PM »