How do you think we should spend the money?

[revup67]

A few other key items I'd like to mention are:

#1 Get a WhiBal card for 34.95.  It will allow you you to fine tune and get the accurate White Balance setting in the room.  Order it from the Michael Tapes web site.  What a difference especially without a flash, the custom white balance within the camera will be dead on perfect with this card.  http://michaeltapesdesign.com/

#2, if you get a 7D, there's a built in wireless transmitter to use with your (hopeful) 580EX II is a huge plus so another words the 580EXII can be used off camera and hand held by your wife or on a stand.  You can configure it with the built in flash to add fill or without the built in flash (solo).  You can also set up the Master / Slave combo with an A+B+C flash (for future if you get more than one flash such as a secondary 430 EX or another 580 EXII).  The manual settings of the 7D's built in flash and the 580 EXII allow a great deal of combinations.  The diffuser on the 580EXII works with UWA lenses up to 15mm as I recall and the white pull down card is great for eye sparkle.  It also has a full 180° swivel head.  The 580EXII in most cases knows exactly the lens that is on the camera and can auto adjust when using E-TTL

[briansquibb]

Whilst the 7D is a good body, I would avoid using it alongside a 5D as it isn't  backup at that point - it is just another body.

For example the 24-105 is a great lens for the wedding - wide enough for group pictures and long enough for portraits. However on a 7D it just wont do the groups

In low light and low light focussing (reception) the 7D just is not up to it and has less scope for high iso

So I wouldn't mix ff and crop.

Two bodies of the same model are preferable as the control layouts are different which can lead to missed shots - not good at the wedding 'excuse me can you kiss the bride again'  is not the cry you want to hear from a photographer 

At a wedding the key issue is getting the content right rather than artistic merit. Getting the ladies without double chins ranks higher than cherry blossom in the background.

Pictures are unlikely to be seen larger than 16x10 so focussing on extreme IQ is wasted time and money.

[wickidwombat]

Whilst the 7D is a good body, I would avoid using it alongside a 5D as it isn't  backup at that point - it is just another body.

For example the 24-105 is a great lens for the wedding - wide enough for group pictures and long enough for portraits. However on a 7D it just wont do the groups

In low light and low light focussing (reception) the 7D just is not up to it and has less scope for high iso

So I wouldn't mix ff and crop.

Two bodies of the same model are preferable as the control layouts are different which can lead to missed shots - not good at the wedding 'excuse me can you kiss the bride again'  is not the cry you want to hear from a photographer 

Also at risk of getting clubbed like a baby seal...
I would also suggest the IQ of the 7D isn't up to pro wedding level and there is a high chance guests could have 7D's (you will get guests coming up and trying to tell you about their gear, its a little annoying when you are trying to do the job the couple are paying you for, you just have to politely brush them off and move on)

Another thing you can look at is used good condition 1Dmk3s i know they are only 11MP but they produce very nice images can shoot up to 3200 iso with probably a little more noise than the 5d2 but still useable and the APS-H will be great with the 17-40. prices of 1Dmk3 should be getting down now especially with the 1dx on the way as it puts the mk3 as 3 models back. i still use mine at weddings although i'm looking at upgrading it to a 1Dmk4 for better high iso and the extra MP.

all up though i think your best best is still a pair of new 5Dmk2s with warranty from a reputable supplier like B&H or adorama

[gmrza]

my 24-105 is an absolute trooper with the stuff its been through and still going strong. tough reliable relatively light good IQ. its a quality package at a respectable price.

It is definitely one of the most versatile lenses, even if its performance, in terms of sharpness is not stellar.  It seems to be very popular with Melbourne wedding photographers.

One thought on Speedlites - the 580EXII has a major advantage over its 430EX(II) cousin, because of the greater range of head rotation. - You cannot bounce a 430EX(II) above and behind you in portrait orientation.

[wickidwombat]

my 24-105 is an absolute trooper with the stuff its been through and still going strong. tough reliable relatively light good IQ. its a quality package at a respectable price.

It is definitely one of the most versatile lenses, even if its performance, in terms of sharpness is not stellar.  It seems to be very popular with Melbourne wedding photographers.

One thought on Speedlites - the 580EXII has a major advantage over its 430EX(II) cousin, because of the greater range of head rotation. - You cannot bounce a 430EX(II) above and behind you in portrait orientation.

I didn't know that about the 430, i only have 580s interesting thanks for the info. I recommended 430s mainly to fit into their budget.

[briansquibb]

I didn't know that about the 430, i only have 580s interesting thanks for the info. I recommended 430s mainly to fit into their budget.

I am accumultating used 580EXs - they are about the same price as the 430EXII - they are excellent in their own right and being masters means you have backup.

I currently have

1 580EXII (Bought for the weatherproofing)
5 580EX
1 430EXII ( for my wife's G12, but can be pressed into service if needed)

[wickidwombat]

wow thats alot, how many eneloops do you have!

I only have 3 580 exii
i also have 3 yongnuo battery packs for them
then i have 24 AA eneloops for each flash so i can do a full change if needed

[briansquibb]

wow thats alot, how many eneloops do you have!

I only have 3 580 exii
i also have 3 yongnuo battery packs for them
then i have 24 AA eneloops for each flash so i can do a full change if needed

I usually only use 3 at a time, although sometomes I have the key light with a triple head and a 5foot shoot through which is why I need 5

Using all this number of speedlights means that each shot takes a small amout of power, so the batteries last longer and the recycle time is short - so on the 1D4 I can take 3 or 4 on high speed.

I have a charging box which has 6 chargers all with spares (dont forget the extras for the PW) - I plug this in to a plug on site so I always have fresh spares on hand - box also includes a double charger for the camera batteries.

[revup67]

I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash?  that was my point.  It's hard to discern with the naked eye on an ISO 100 in RAW from a 5D to a 7D unless it's blown up to a poster size.  on an 8x10 I would be curious to know if you would truly see a difference.  Also, the original poster stated he had a limited budget in mind and trying to stay within that find limitation.  I might be hard pressed to go backward in time with a 1Dmk3s and the small LCD.  I think the 7D would out pixel this camera regardless and hold up better distortion wise.

Also, all the concern about a higher ISO with the 7D might be moot.  It would seem pointless to take those shots anyway as they wouldn't be much good no matter what camera is used.  You're gonna get noise from about 800 onward.  I'd keep the flash on for anything 800 and over

Here's a 1600 ISO shot in RAW on a 400mm 5.6 @ 1250 at dusk then shrunk to a 5148 pixel JPG then shrunk again to a 1920 pixel JPG.


Snowy Egret .......(not at the Zoo, in the Wild) by Revup67, on Flickr

[FOB2009]

The Zeiss 100/2.0 is incredible for portraits!

[wickidwombat]

I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash?  that was my point.  It's hard to discern with the naked eye on an ISO 100 in RAW from a 5D to a 7D unless it's blown up to a poster size.  on an 8x10 I would be curious to know if you would truly see a difference.  Also, the original poster stated he had a limited budget in mind and trying to stay within that find limitation.  I might be hard pressed to go backward in time with a 1Dmk3s and the small LCD.  I think the 7D would out pixel this camera regardless and hold up better distortion wise.

Also, all the concern about a higher ISO with the 7D might be moot.  It would seem pointless to take those shots anyway as they wouldn't be much good no matter what camera is used.  You're gonna get noise from about 800 onward.  I'd keep the flash on for anything 800 and over

Here's a 1600 ISO shot in RAW on a 400mm 5.6 @ 1250 at dusk then shrunk to a 5148 pixel JPG then shrunk again to a 1920 pixel JPG.


Snowy Egret .......(not at the Zoo, in the Wild) by Revup67, on Flickr

quite often in churches you arent allowed to use flash for the ceremony

also with reception and using flash you need to expose for the background the room ambient and balance the subject to get a nice colour balanced shot this usually means shooting with fast glass wide open high iso and flash otherwise if the flash is dominant then the background gets killed to black or very dark so still shooting 1600 or 3200 depending which lens you are using.

[briansquibb]

I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash?

Using the flash for infill - ie on camera - perhaps during the reception else you end up with just the subject in the picture with the background blacked out. This is particularly important when getting closeup pictures as the closer you are the less flash spill happens (law of squares)

In a reception you might well want the background in focus so need f/8 or so - reducing the light, and needing more iso to keep the shutter speed reasonable

I use flash a lot - including bright sunshine - as it lets you control the light to bring out the subject from the background, I find turning down exposure compensation (-1/3) and flash exposure up (+1/3) just lifts the subject out of the background without using blur

[vuilang]

I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash?

In a reception you might well want the background in focus so need f/8 or so - reducing the light, and needing more iso to keep the shutter speed reasonable

Reception n F8? it must be a very bright reception.. I never got that type and never done that.
Just to have the background in focus, you could use a slight Wide angle lense at around F4 is more than sharp-enough background

[briansquibb]

I know everyone of the 5D users likes to bash the 7D with the ISO and it is true but are you really going to be using a high ISO if you have a 580 EXii flash?

In a reception you might well want the background in focus so need f/8 or so - reducing the light, and needing more iso to keep the shutter speed reasonable

Reception n F8? it must be a very bright reception.. I never got that type and never done that.
Just to have the background in focus, you could use a slight Wide angle lense at around F4 is more than sharp-enough background

The light in reception is usually fairly low - however at iso 3200 you can manage. Wide angle either gets you people/objects you dont want or you crop and lose IQ. The first dance is one picture where you need to get quite close and guarantee everything in focus. You need to be close to reduce the depth of the flash lighting.

Easier and better to do it the right way. The little tickle of flash turns it into a stunning picture.

[revup67]

I use flash a lot - including bright sunshine - as it lets you control the light to bring out the subject from the background, I find turning down exposure compensation (-1/3) and flash exposure up (+1/3) just lifts the subject out of the background without using blur

Yes, this is a great idea. If no flash is permitted as you point out at a reception that raises a whole other issue with the WB.

Whatever the situation flash / no flash, higher ISO lower ISO , I would think a White Balance card needs to be included.  If a wedding photographer used the AWB or any presets that would be a cause for concern from my point of view.