December 12, 2017, 10:52:48 PM

Author Topic: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.  (Read 25543 times)

lay85

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2016, 08:52:51 PM »
Yes Josh but as per the original question why is the 1920x1080 footage perfect and 4k footage useless. Even at about 10km/hr the 4k footage is bad, about 10% is almost usable.
I'm thinking it's actually more to do with Motion J-peg?

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2016, 08:52:51 PM »

Besisika

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 11:07:50 PM »
Josh Denver, that's a very thoughtful and well written commentary on the subject; one we have to live with.  I've Googled a fair amount over the last week and personally had more or less sorted it out but this was still helpful.

Now what if the scenario is one of a moving object, say a bird, and I'm using at a very high shutter speed.  Would the 1DX II still display a jello distortion when extracting a shot, thus diminishing the value of this form of action shooting; in other words 60 fps vs 14 fps is not really useful??

Jack
Jack,
I don't expect you to have any issue, because you are panning with the bird. And even if you freeze it, I still don't expect you to have any issue with the bird.
Below is an example of a frame grab taken that way.
Verdun Cricket-0001 by Besisika, on Flickr

Besisika

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 11:13:25 PM »
Yes Josh but as per the original question why is the 1920x1080 footage perfect and 4k footage useless. Even at about 10km/hr the 4k footage is bad, about 10% is almost usable.
I'm thinking it's actually more to do with Motion J-peg?
Me too, I am having ugly result (with rolling shutter) shooting 4K at 24fps, very usable at 30fps and perfect at 60fps.
Is it Motion J-peg; I am not sure. Let's see what Canon says. But agree, something is not right.

Josh Denver

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2016, 12:14:24 AM »
No it's zero to do with the codec wether motion Jpec or ProRes. Here are some facts to make you understand how the 1DXII works and hopefully answer your questions:

-4K 24p/25p/30p have a slow sensor readout speed, 30milliseconds to read a frame from corner to corner.

-4K 50p/60p is twice as fast. Because the chip is forced to get 60 frames in a second each frame is read faster. Half 30millisecond is 15ms, which is Sony FS7/300 rolling shutter speed.(Has that videoish 60p look though of course or has to be slowed down)

-1080p modes are a medium 22ms which is better that 5D MKIII video.

-Rolling shutter distortion only appears in an image when the camera is panned horizontally fast, or when a very fast object passes perpendicular to the sensor plane (Race car from the side). In all other normal speeds shooting it's almost invisible and in tripod shots it is invisible (not almost)

- RS distortion is related to how the sensor is read electronically, meaning when the camera uses an electronic shutter. While in normal stills mode (14fps) the camera uses a physical shutter that eliminates any trace of distortion (it opens and closes the exposure to the entire sensor at once, same as a camera with a global electronic shutter). So physical shutters are superior but of course can't be used for 30p and 60p speeds. (Sony F65, highest end cinema camera, has a physical shutter for 120p, but it's a HUGE block having its own fan and noise)

If you want to shoot for frame extraction 4K 60p is the way to go. Keep lateral pans in non crazy territory.

If you want a film like motion and shooting a film say a dialogue between to actors, 24p 4K is the way to go.

If you want to conserve memory space shooot in 1080p, All-i setting, 24/25/30p. Or 60p if you want to slow it down (or like the fluid 60p look god forbids)

Jack Douglas

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2016, 02:49:46 AM »
Josh, thanks for the info!

Jack
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lic4

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2016, 10:31:12 PM »
Hi Josh, have you tested to see this with actual measurements? Various sites seem to have conflicting points about the rolling shutter. Some say that the speed is the same from 24 to 60 for the 1DX. Have you seen a difference?

lay85

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2016, 12:28:29 AM »
But the problem we're experiencing is no panning, just basically stationary but bumpy.  There is no scene moving across the frame or no object moving across the frame.
Anyway, I've sent Canon some sample footage today so should get an answer from them soon.
 

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2016, 12:28:29 AM »

lay85

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2016, 07:23:39 PM »
So I spoke to Canon quite a bit yesterday, they have watched the sample video and are aware of the issue but dont have a definate answer yet but I have heard rumours of a software upgrade.
As far as the 200 dust spots on the sensor, they tell me the warranty is void if I get the sensor cleaned at a non Canon service centre which is  a pain as I live 5,000km from the nearest one so I'd be 1 month without the camera for each time it's cleaned.

ethanz

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2016, 09:56:14 PM »

-4K 50p/60p is twice as fast. Because the chip is forced to get 60 frames in a second each frame is read faster. Half 30millisecond is 15ms, which is Sony FS7/300 rolling shutter speed.(Has that videoish 60p look though of course or has to be slowed down)

If you want to conserve memory space shooot in 1080p, All-i setting, 24/25/30p. Or 60p if you want to slow it down (or like the fluid 60p look god forbids)

Would a solution to their RS problems be to change the firmware to readout for 24/30p at the same speed as 60p?

What is wrong with 60p look?
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ethanz

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2016, 09:58:42 PM »
So I spoke to Canon quite a bit yesterday, they have watched the sample video and are aware of the issue but dont have a definate answer yet but I have heard rumours of a software upgrade.
As far as the 200 dust spots on the sensor, they tell me the warranty is void if I get the sensor cleaned at a non Canon service centre which is  a pain as I live 5,000km from the nearest one so I'd be 1 month without the camera for each time it's cleaned.

Did they give any recommendation for the dust spots? I have so many.
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Jack Douglas

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2016, 12:14:17 AM »
From some other threads on CR unless they are really problematic just ignore them and remove them when occasionally they show up in blue sky etc.  Ones that I fussed about seeing when I really looked for them generally don't show up in my shots so now I just don't fret.

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serenaur

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2016, 05:13:53 AM »
But the problem we're experiencing is no panning, just basically stationary but bumpy.  There is no scene moving across the frame or no object moving across the frame.

In which case, unless you are using some form of camera stabilisation like a steadicam or gimbal, the bumpy up and down motion of being in the car is equivalent to quickly panning left and right which is what would cause the jello effect, just on a different axis.
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Jack Douglas

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2016, 01:32:48 PM »
But the problem we're experiencing is no panning, just basically stationary but bumpy.  There is no scene moving across the frame or no object moving across the frame.

In which case, unless you are using some form of camera stabilisation like a steadicam or gimbal, the bumpy up and down motion of being in the car is equivalent to quickly panning left and right which is what would cause the jello effect, just on a different axis.

Please excuse my lack of experience in this but does a camera that has IS built in function similarly to having a steadicam type device?

Jack
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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2016, 01:32:48 PM »

lic4

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2016, 05:23:09 PM »
It seems clear that lay85 has a problem in his camera, and it has nothing to do with operator error.

I tested my 1DX Mark II rolling shutter at 23.976FPS against my 5D Mark III, based on Josh Denver's post that the sensor speed could be 30ms. I recorded whip pans with the two cameras mounted on the same tripod. The 1DX Mark II appeared to be noticeably faster than the 5D Mark III shooting at 24P, giving vertical lines less of an angle of skew. For me, this supports the measurements by Cinema5d.com that the 1DX Mark II has a speed of 14ms to the 5D Mark III's 18ms. Changing from 60p to 24p does not appear to change the sensor speed.

As for Jack's question, the camera does not have any stabilization in the body, but is limited to stabilization offered in various Canon lenses.

Jack Douglas

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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2016, 07:12:21 PM »
It seems clear that lay85 has a problem in his camera, and it has nothing to do with operator error.

I tested my 1DX Mark II rolling shutter at 23.976FPS against my 5D Mark III, based on Josh Denver's post that the sensor speed could be 30ms. I recorded whip pans with the two cameras mounted on the same tripod. The 1DX Mark II appeared to be noticeably faster than the 5D Mark III shooting at 24P, giving vertical lines less of an angle of skew. For me, this supports the measurements by Cinema5d.com that the 1DX Mark II has a speed of 14ms to the 5D Mark III's 18ms. Changing from 60p to 24p does not appear to change the sensor speed.

As for Jack's question, the camera does not have any stabilization in the body, but is limited to stabilization offered in various Canon lenses.

Small misunderstanding here; I'm referring to cameras that do have IS.  That is, is it significant or is a gimbal type external stabilization required for all cameras, regardless?

Jack
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Re: Canon 1DXmkII 4K Video jello.
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2016, 07:12:21 PM »