October 17, 2017, 05:04:26 PM

Author Topic: Canon EF 135mm f/2L IS Coming in 2017 [CR2]  (Read 30662 times)

privatebydesign

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Re: Canon EF 135mm f/2L IS Coming in 2017 [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2017, 12:16:37 PM »
PBD,

ok, I will make it really simple:

images shot on 5D IV with 70mm non stabilised lens at 1/50s are _evidently_ less sharp than the same but at 1/150 sec when evaluated at 1:1 ( pixel level) on decent size screen.  True or not? I say true and I have a very strong evidence to support my claim. let alone shooting with 85mm lens at 1/50s...

p.s. what is the point of shooting huge 50 mp files if you will have to downsample them down to 20Mp size just to equalise image sharpness with an image natively shot on 20Mp camera? some kind of weird logic. don't you think?




I beg to differ.. It is a common knowledge that old 1/focal length reciprocal rule is no longer  valid for Canon 5DsR camera. I can provide tons of evidence to support my claim..

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-5ds-r/canon-5ds-r-field-test-part-i.htm

"... Watch that shutter speed
And speaking of technique, the high-resolution sensor also changes the game regarding the long-standing 1/focal length shutter speed "rule" -- a.k.a. the Reciprocal Rule -- which states that the minimum shutter speed required to avoid camera shake when shooting handheld is 1/focal length (i.e. 1/50s for a 50mm lens). With the Canon 5DS R, the individual pixels are so small that a much smaller amount of movement poses a risk for per-pixel blurring, so you'll need to account for this with a faster shutter speed -- perhaps even 1/(2x focal length)..."


sorry, 5D IV is a 30Mp camera. I am getting sharp shots with non-stabilised lens at Tmin= 1/(1.5 x Focal Length)
You mentioned that you shoot people at no slower 1/50s shutter speed. 85mm unstabilised lens at 1/80s may no longer work for you on 30Mp FF sensor. An extra stop or two of stabilisation would certainly take care of the issue.
If it worked for him with 20 MPIX camera it'll work just as well with a 30 MPIX, 50 MPIX and 500 MPIX camera. There not a iota more motion blur. On the contrary - shutter devices are improving with newer high-MPIX cameras effectively reducing shutter-induced blur.

It all depends on your output for goodness sake.

If you compare a 50MP image to a 20MP image at the same size the shake is exactly the same. If you compare at pixel size the 50MP is enlarged more so the shake is more apparent.

This is a simple fact and it can be looked at two ways.
1: The only 'fair comparison' is two images the same size.
2: There is no point in a higher MP sensor if you don't want pixel level sharpness.

Both are valid and it really depends on your uses.

Of course it's true, that is EXACTLY what I said in scenario 2:, above!

Now do you say that if you print a 14" x 21" print from a 20MP camera and a 50MP camera there is a difference in sharpness between the two assuming the shutter speed was the same?

If you look at both on pretty much any screen at full screen they are both identical. The 50MP image only looks shakier if you enlarge it more! Guess what? If you enlarge the 20MP image to the same size the shake is exactly the same..........

Stop talking across each other, I have covered the two possible scenarios, nobody is arguing the shake, they are arguing the comparison. Is 'same size' a fair comparison or is unequal size but 1:1 a fair comparison.

In truth 1:1 is a bulls!t comparison, it isn't a fair one, if you ever look at both at the same size the shake is the same. However, if you want to get pixel level sharpness for smaller pixels with the same focal length then you need ever faster shutter speeds, that is obvious and isn't related to pixel number per se, it is related to magnification.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: Canon EF 135mm f/2L IS Coming in 2017 [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2017, 12:16:37 PM »

Maiaibing

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Re: Canon EF 135mm f/2L IS Coming in 2017 [CR2]
« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2017, 04:40:52 PM »
PBD,

ok, I will make it really simple:

images shot on 5D IV with 70mm non stabilised lens at 1/50s are _evidently_ less sharp than the same but at 1/150 sec when evaluated at 1:1 ( pixel level) on decent size screen.  True or not? I say true and I have a very strong evidence to support my claim. let alone shooting with 85mm lens at 1/50s...

p.s. what is the point of shooting huge 50 mp files if you will have to downsample them down to 20Mp size just to equalise image sharpness with an image natively shot on 20Mp camera? some kind of weird logic. don't you think?


As previously noted you are stuck in the false idea that people are "downsampling" their pictures. They are not. The concept of downsampling is meaningless for our photographic results - no matter how we view them, there is always just that one single resulting picture - on screen, print or whatever we look at, at whatever size we are viewing it - and whatever sensor size we used to take the picture. It's that simple. You can choose to call it upsampling - downsampling - rightsampling - leftsampling - upsidedownsampling or whatever. It means nothing. There's a print 10x30, 20x90, 6x55 - could be anything. We look at the print from various cameras and compare the quality of the results. Color, sharpness etc. We can do the same just looking at pictures on the internet. How do the pictures from each sensor look side-by-side?

This is where the advantage of 50 MPIX over 20 or 30 MPIX plays out in all its simplicity. The same picture taken at the different MPIX sensor sizes will always be sharper when shot at 50 MPIX - always.

And you can in fact see the difference between 20/30 MPIX and 50 MPIX with the naked eye at fairly moderate print sizes (if the motive lends itself to sharpness scrutiny). There are many samples on the net to show this.

Since every photographic expression is an end result for the viewer - there is only that one size to compare with. Otherwise there is simply no true comparison, expect for viewing the same picture at different sizes - but that is exactly not comparing.

Let me suggest you rethink your conceptual approach before just restating what you have written so often before as it seems to lead to several misunderstandings including the one that having 50 MPIX may not be an advantage over 20 MPIX at certain viewing sizes - which is patently false if looking at like pictures that in fact can be compared meaningfully.

SecureGSM

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Re: Canon EF 135mm f/2L IS Coming in 2017 [CR2]
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2017, 01:16:50 AM »
there is a massive misunderstanding of the issue on your side.
You are seems to be arguing the obvious and what is common knowledge:

in order to eliminate camera shake when shooting with 5DsR one need to shoot at shutter speed faster than 1/focal length. that simple. to a lesser degree on 5D IV, but the issue still evident.

For your information, when you review high resolution image on a smaller resolution screen, the image being automatically down-sampled to fit the screen pixel count by either your computer or TV in-built algorithm . just so that we both understand what really takes place.

I suggest for you to watch the following Dustin Abbott Youtube video:

https://youtu.be/rOpDkPWpMFw?t=10m57s

Dustin established that tripod mounted Canon 24-70 II L lens at 70mm is sharper than Tamron 24 70 G2. but question is: how hand-holding affects the situation. 

the take away home here is that if you shoot at 1/focal length with unstabilised lens on 5D IV your resulting image will take a beating from the camera shake. one have to shoot at a faster shutter speed or use stabilised lens instead.

just to refresh your memory: The point I am trying to argue here that I get camera shakes shooting with 5D IV and 85mm non-stabilised lens at 1/80s.1/125s shutter speed seems to work for me just fine.

PBD,

ok, I will make it really simple:

images shot on 5D IV with 70mm non stabilised lens at 1/50s are _evidently_ less sharp than the same but at 1/150 sec when evaluated at 1:1 ( pixel level) on decent size screen.  True or not? I say true and I have a very strong evidence to support my claim. let alone shooting with 85mm lens at 1/50s...

p.s. what is the point of shooting huge 50 mp files if you will have to downsample them down to 20Mp size just to equalise image sharpness with an image natively shot on 20Mp camera? some kind of weird logic. don't you think?


As previously noted you are stuck in the false idea that people are "downsampling" their pictures. They are not. The concept of downsampling is meaningless for our photographic results - no matter how we view them, there is always just that one single resulting picture - on screen, print or whatever we look at, at whatever size we are viewing it - and whatever sensor size we used to take the picture. It's that simple. You can choose to call it upsampling - downsampling - rightsampling - leftsampling - upsidedownsampling or whatever. It means nothing. There's a print 10x30, 20x90, 6x55 - could be anything. We look at the print from various cameras and compare the quality of the results. Color, sharpness etc. We can do the same just looking at pictures on the internet. How do the pictures from each sensor look side-by-side?

This is where the advantage of 50 MPIX over 20 or 30 MPIX plays out in all its simplicity. The same picture taken at the different MPIX sensor sizes will always be sharper when shot at 50 MPIX - always.

And you can in fact see the difference between 20/30 MPIX and 50 MPIX with the naked eye at fairly moderate print sizes (if the motive lends itself to sharpness scrutiny). There are many samples on the net to show this.

Since every photographic expression is an end result for the viewer - there is only that one size to compare with. Otherwise there is simply no true comparison, expect for viewing the same picture at different sizes - but that is exactly not comparing.

Let me suggest you rethink your conceptual approach before just restating what you have written so often before as it seems to lead to several misunderstandings including the one that having 50 MPIX may not be an advantage over 20 MPIX at certain viewing sizes - which is patently false if looking at like pictures that in fact can be compared meaningfully.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 03:20:43 AM by SecureGSM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Canon EF 135mm f/2L IS Coming in 2017 [CR2]
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2017, 10:05:11 AM »
I'm not missing anything! You are completely ignoring the fact that observability of camera shake is simply a function of magnification not MP numbers. If you enlarge anything enough you will see it isn't 'sharp'. If you look at a 4MP image at 1:1 it is sharp at half the shutter speed/focal length 'rule', if you look at a 20MP image it aligns pretty closely at 1:1 with the 'rule' if you look at a 50MP image at 1:1 it might need twice the 'rule', but that is not because you have more megapixels or that the camera "is harder on lenses" it is simply because as you get more MP when viewed at 1:1 you are looking at the same shake but enlarged more. The 4MP image is 1/16 the size of the 50MP image! So any flaws in the bigger image are 16 times more visible.

You are completely failing to acknowledge that when you look at 1:1 on a higher megapixel image you are simply magnifying the shake more so it is more readily observable. The shake on a 20MP image and a 50MP image is exactly the same at the same magnification. That is true if you look at full screen, any same sized print, any crop of the same area and also if you upsample the smaller image to the pixel dimensions of the larger.

There is nothing magical about higher MP numbers and no 'rules' change.

What it does mean is if you want pixel level sharpness out of higher MP cameras you need better technique, but only because you are magnifying your technical flaws more not because they are more apparent at same sized output.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon EF 135mm f/2L IS Coming in 2017 [CR2]
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2017, 10:05:11 AM »