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Author Topic: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]  (Read 16643 times)

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No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« on: November 09, 2010, 12:48:33 PM »
The hits keep on coming. It has recently been suggested to me that there will not be a 1Ds Mark IV at all.

The 5D Mark III (or whatever it’s called) will be aimed to take over the market for 1Ds users.

I know a couple of 1Ds3 users that are using 5D Mark II’s most of the time now. Both folks say if the 5D3 ups its build quality and AF, they’d never buy a 1Ds again. If it’s priced at under $3000, a lot of people will probably feel the same way.

The same person says it’s possible that a new camera at the top of the lineup aimed solely at the medium format market, but not a medium format camera, will come to fruition. The design will be a radical departure (possibly modular).

CR’s Take We’ve heard rumblings about this in the past.

Canon fans say all the time that they want Canon to be “revolutionary again”. However, when a rumor points to a big departure (which doesn’t happen frequently), it’s generally put down for being untrue or unrealistic.

I have a lot of trouble seeing a point to the 1Ds line as its currently implemented, I’d say a radical departure is a strong possibility.

cr

« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 01:12:40 PM by Canon Rumors »
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No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« on: November 09, 2010, 12:48:33 PM »

nocojoe

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2010, 12:58:18 PM »
I read a pretty interesting thread about whether or not there is a large enough market share, or enough room for profits for Canon and Nikon to even want to enter into the Medium Format niche.  Right now, I don't know if there is enough money in MF cameras for Canon and Nikon to want to enter the fray. 

If there is enough monetary incentive, then I can definitely think this rumor is credible.  I think it depends on what Canon's outlook is on the MF camera niche.

MadButcher

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2010, 01:06:48 PM »
Or maybe Canon buys a MF camera company.
Just like they did recently with Océ (ultra high volume copiers and printers).

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2010, 01:14:29 PM »
Or maybe Canon buys a MF camera company.
Just like they did recently with Océ (ultra high volume copiers and printers).

 I know for a fact Canon had at least 1 MF manufacturers books open.
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stark-arts

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Could that mean the 3D finally comes?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2010, 01:28:22 PM »
It could mean the highly talked about 3D comes to fruition - a full frame, pro af, weather sealed body but with the size of a 5D. it would cost more for sure - more likely in the 3500 range but would probably be worth it...
they could then do the "7D feature set in a 5D" update that so many people seem to clamor for and keep the same 21mp chip and do little else to the current 5D (perhaps up frame rate to 5, add more video features and the dual chips of the 7D)and call it 5DII and charge maybe even a little less like 2000 and they would OWN the current 2500 dollar full frame market (d700 and sony whatever)

It would also hopefully mean a faster cycle on 1D with the 1DV being full frame 21MP with a 12-14MP crop where it gets 7-8 fps at full res and 12 or so at the 1.3 crop....new AF and try to take back all the market share that the D3s took this past two years....

macfly

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2010, 01:39:00 PM »
Hmmm, well looks like its time for me to to buy that Nikon D3s.

Flake

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 01:45:33 PM »
It would be nice to have the option of a 5D MkII type with a battery grip built in as part of the body for sale at a slightly higher price, although how easy this might be in practice is anyones guess.

What is the point of the 1Ds Mk** well part of it is in having a bigger camera than the customer!  not much good if a pro turns up with a camera that the client thinks is nothing more special than the entry level models he sees wrapped around the necks of so many amateurs.

Of course it's weather sealed and has a long life shutter and the body is considerably stronger than a 5D MkII at the moment it has the top of the range autofocus (would this fit in a 5D type body?).

From the Luminous Landscape post before we are entering an area of even more diminishing returns, the Canon FF cameras share the same sensor and image processor (although the 5D has better micro lenses) so the images are never going to be so very different if this format is continued.  The only real point of a new 1Ds would be if it had a markedly better sensor than the 5D MkIII, this would mean developing two FF units and would the 1Ds sales justify the R & D costs?

 The current high street price of the 1Ds means that a photographer could buy 3 5D MkIIs and it's difficult to justify that kind of high price.  I just hope that it doesn't mean pricing a new FF model so high that it pushes it out of the reach of ordinary mortals.

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 01:45:33 PM »

Justin

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 01:52:05 PM »
Radical departure?

Umm, hello. We had the radical departure. It's called the 5D2. That happened 2 and change years ago. What have you done for us lately Canon? Not much. 5D2 remains a slow machine. 1Ds nowhere to be found. 1D4 is not the D we're looking for.

So what if the replacement for the 1Ds series is a 5D3? I don't give a horses arse what they call it.  I don't care if it replaces something, doesn't replace something, is a bridge to nowhere, just build a better responding machine around a full frame sensor that works with the EF mount. I'll either keep my 5D2 as backup or swap it for a 7D backup.

What Canon should do but won't (note my marketing nomenclature proposal ditches the "D" for digital shtick since we obviously know these are all digital camera, and replaces it with the lens mount type built exclusively for it).

medium
1 M = medium format sensor, 4 fps, beyond insane DR, modular, new M mount, yada yada expensive

dslr
3 EF = 30+ full frame sensor, 7 fps (boost to 10 with some grip thing), wicked AF, high iso, low noise, insane DR
5 EF = 30+ full frame sensor, 5 fps, medium sick AF, high iso, low noise, insane DR
7 S = 21 mpx APS-C sensor, 8 fps, wicked AF, improved DR
xxS = whatever profitable rebel line they want to keep milking

mirrorless aps-c
9ml = ??, new ml mount (adapter for old aps-c legacy lenses)
11ml = ??, new ml mount (adapter for old aps-c legacy lenses)

Rocky

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2010, 01:53:41 PM »

<p>The same person says it’s possible that a new camera at the top of the lineup aimed solely at the medium format market, but not a medium format camera, will come to fruition. The design will be a radical departure (possibly modular).</p>
<p>CR’s Take

We’ve heard rumblings about this in the past.</p>

Is there any chance that Canon is thinking about a square sensor that is 31.5mm on each side? This format will use ALL the existing EF lens and take the bulk out of the medium format. Just like the  Rollieflex 127 in the OLD film days.

dilbert

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Re: Could that mean the 3D finally comes?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2010, 02:06:45 PM »
It could mean the highly talked about 3D comes to fruition - a full frame, pro af, weather sealed body but with the size of a 5D. it would cost more for sure - more likely in the 3500 range but would probably be worth it...
they could then do the "7D feature set in a 5D" update that so many people seem to clamor for and keep the same 21mp chip and do little else to the current 5D (perhaps up frame rate to 5, add more video features and the dual chips of the 7D)and call it 5DII and charge maybe even a little less like 2000 and they would OWN the current 2500 dollar full frame market (d700 and sony whatever)

This will depend on a few things...
1) where does the extra cost in the 1Ds line *really* come from? The work on making the body properly sealed? The extra size of the body? Designing in both orientations? The AF? The low sales from it being a camera that's too big for most people so low volumes require higher prices for profit? If we consider that the sensor can go in the 5D2 for about 1/3 the price (MSRP) and that the 1D4 is about 1/2 the price with the same sealing, etc, then my guess is that its size and performance (not enough fps for sports) reduces the market enough that it is limited thus delivering low volume and a higher price. But if it is the build/AF that adds to the price instead...
2) I don't think that the 7D needs to become full frame, it's fine where/how it is as a class leader in the APS-C market. The innovation that will matter there will be whether or not to do a pelical mirror in the next rev.
3) A 5D sized 3D that brought with it 1D AF and body sealing would take a lot of pressure off of the 5D line to be more and allow the 3D/5D pair to own the FF market, especially if the separation was about $1500 ($2000/$3500)

Rocky

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Re: Could that mean the 3D finally comes?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2010, 02:36:59 PM »
2) I don't think that the 7D needs to become full frame, it's fine where/how it is as a class leader in the APS-C market. The innovation that will matter there will be whether or not to do a Pelical mirror in the next rev.

Pelical mirror is a interesting idea. However, I think canon must have found out something that they do not like about Pelical. canon made the Pelical SLR in the 60's then give it up. As far as I know Canon held the pattern right on Pelical mirror in the SLR, and it has expired (just like the Leica  M mount pattern). Canon tried to bring it back again in the 90's and give it up again.  Does anyone know the reason behind it, besides the dimmer view finder. I am very curious to know.  Now Sony is trying to use it now .

mws

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Re: Could that mean the 3D finally comes?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2010, 02:55:06 PM »

Pelical mirror is a interesting idea. However, I think canon must have found out something that they do not like about Pelical. canon made the Pelical SLR in the 60's then give it up. As far as I know Canon held the pattern right on Pelical mirror in the SLR, and it has expired (just like the Leica  M mount pattern). Canon tried to bring it back again in the 90's and give it up again.  Does anyone know the reason behind it, besides the dimmer view finder. I am very curious to know.  Now Sony is trying to use it now .

Pelical mirrors allow you to run the AF system during exposure (good for video). But it eats up about 1/3 stop of light, negligible to most users, but if you do a lot of low light stuff you may want every bit you can get.

Here is a interesting article about it: http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2010/11/04/a-dark-side-to-sony-pellicle-mirror-camera-design/

seanmcr6

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2010, 03:38:57 PM »
"Both folks say if the 5D3 ups its build quality and AF, they’d never buy a 1Ds again. If it’s priced at under $3000, a lot of people will probably feel the same way."

I LOL'ed soooo hard when I read this.

This isn't anything new....I've heard this lots of times....

"If Canon would only make the 20D with better AF and full weather sealing....I wouldn't buy a 1D series...."

"If Canon would only make the 5D with the same AF as the 1DmkII....and better sealed....and under $2000...they would have a **real** winner on their hands...the last camera I would ever need to buy...but this current camera is too expensive for what you get" (btw...how many 5D's did Canon sell?...exactly)

Do you guys think Canon is stupid? Do you think Canon likes making LESS money?

Why would ANY company think it's a good idea to improve a $2400 camera to replace a $8000 one? really? I mean....REALLY?

No chance in hell.

Things are shifting...times are changing. No doubt. But Canon is just like every single other company out there. They create things to make MONEY. Doesn't matter what innovations the come up with, they will always have a tiered approach to selling their cameras and the "PRO" features will be reserved for the pro priced products. They only make it to lesser products when there are enough NEW pro features to continue the class separation.

In case any of you have noticed...Canon (and Nikon) aren't exactly struggling in the sales department. They're not short on cash. They way they do business is working for them. They are not going to change it.

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2010, 03:38:57 PM »

Rocky

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 03:53:07 PM »
What is the point of the 1Ds Mk** well part of it is in having a bigger camera than the customer!  not much good if a pro turns up with a camera that the client thinks is nothing more special than the entry level models he sees wrapped around the necks of so many amateur

I am thinking the opposite. User should have a choice whether he want a big camera  to impress his customer or use his own reputation and final result to impress the customer.  Vertical grip should be an add on not a built in.
"size do not count, It is the performance that counts". If want to impress the customer, you can  walk in with a M9 or a Hasselblad.

unexposure

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 04:03:52 PM »
What is the point of the 1Ds Mk** well part of it is in having a bigger camera than the customer!  not much good if a pro turns up with a camera that the client thinks is nothing more special than the entry level models he sees wrapped around the necks of so many amateur

I am thinking the opposite. User should have a choice whether he want a big camera  to impress his customer or use his own reputation and final result to impress the customer.  Vertical grip should be an add on not a built in.
"size do not count, It is the performance that counts". If want to impress the customer, you can  walk in with a M9 or a Hasselblad.
even if it's some kind of off-topic:
That's exactly the reason with what several "professionals" that own a mf-cam, but shoot with 5dII, justify their investion - it's there to impress the customer.

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Re: No 1Ds IV? [CR1]
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 04:03:52 PM »