July 23, 2018, 01:50:41 PM

Author Topic: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer  (Read 109493 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 11:43:17 AM »
No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

Canon are leading.  In case you missed it, even though Canon has only limited offerings in mirrorless, they are #2 globally in MILC sales, ahead of Olympus and Panasonic (and Fuji isn't even a blip).  When they feel the market is ready for a Canon FF MILC, they'll launch one.  As I pointed out above, ILC sales are still primarily dSLRs, and despite years of predictions to the contrary, that hasn't changed and shows no signs of doing so any time soon.  Perhaps it escaped your attention that Sony tried to compete in the dSLR market...and failed.  Utterly.  And then in typical Sony fashion, they abandoned the market.

But, Sony is leading, too...in full frame camera sales...based on revenues not units...in the US only...for a two month period.  Yay Sony! 

By the way, I'd love to have 'failed' like IBM has. 
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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 11:43:17 AM »

benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 11:50:28 AM »
I hardly think that Canon could have forgotten the lessons learned in only the past 20 years while digital took over the market. When Canon decides to release a full-frame MILC, I have no doubt it'll be an extremely refined product.

That is my hope too. I'd also like to think they've taken their sweet time because they're refining their first FF mirrorless but like I said, I prefer to see physical evidence of it this year or early next year, not in 2020 or 2025.

scyrene

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2017, 12:04:40 PM »
Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?


Classy. Don't actually engage with people, just accuse them of being shills. Maybe the rest of the world doesn't share your opinions?

Mirrorless is the future. *ducks in a predominantly DSLR forum* Canon must move more quickly in this arena and not be complacent. As a user, I'd prefer to have the option of a Canon mirrorless FF in 2017 or early 2018 rather than in 2020 or 2025. I don't get why that idea is supposed to be a bad thing.

It's a popular and widespread view, but the real question is *when*? People were saying mirrorless was about to overtake DSLRs for several years now, and it hasn't happened. Why is it suddenly urgent now? Why are your predictions (that seem to be based only on your desires and needs) more accurate than all those others'?

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

Yawn. Other companies have failed in the past, so it must be that Canon will? Along with your ad hominem above, you're showing an aptitude for logical fallacies if nothing else. We've been through this so many times on these forums that it's beyond tedious: mirrorless is not a paradigm shift like smartphones or the switch from film to digital, and Canon is much more clued up (from what we can tell) about market positioning than some of those previous examples. Mirrorless is coming, it's here, but Canon isn't losing market share, and not one of these magical Sony cameras has harmed them. So why do you believe they have to release what *you* want right now or they'll fail?
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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2017, 12:05:32 PM »
I will say this... I am thinking about the 1dX Mark II, and I'm currently borrowing one from CPS to evaluate.

These specs are impressive enough for me to think about Sony, despite my personal experience with their terrible service.

I'd need to see some weather proofing, decent AF on Canon native glass with adapter. But it's now in the consideration envelope.

I'm not one to root for Canon or any other manufacturer. It would be nice if Canon responded in kind, but if Sony fixes its problems and puts out these specs, it's a win for us too.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2017, 12:07:51 PM »
I feel like Canon is run by ruthless marketeers who have optimized the model a thousand times to best balance the value of the end product, the quality it is made, and the return they'll get on its offerings.  They know we'll stick around as customers with innovation at level X, quality at level Y and price at level Z. They've done the math.

And, in contrast, I feel that Sony is run by coked-up maniacs who only put their chips on the table for innovation and speed to market.  I liken it to a teenager being asked to be the CEO of Lamborghini:  "It's gotta be faster, it's gotta be cooler, it's gotta have this awesome feature! Now!"

In fairness, they consistently deliver these spec sheet beasts (albeit with some fine print on RAW compression, AF tracking, etc.).  But durability, quality, customer support, and quickly building out the lens portfolio appears to be an afterthought with them.

- A

benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2017, 12:26:52 PM »
Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?


Classy. Don't actually engage with people, just accuse them of being shills. Maybe the rest of the world doesn't share your opinions?

Oh please. Classy of you to delete the context of that response.

Are you AvTvM in disguise?
So he was the first to accuse me of being another poster.

Mirrorless is the future. *ducks in a predominantly DSLR forum* Canon must move more quickly in this arena and not be complacent. As a user, I'd prefer to have the option of a Canon mirrorless FF in 2017 or early 2018 rather than in 2020 or 2025. I don't get why that idea is supposed to be a bad thing.

It's a popular and widespread view, but the real question is *when*? People were saying mirrorless was about to overtake DSLRs for several years now, and it hasn't happened. Why is it suddenly urgent now? Why are your predictions (that seem to be based only on your desires and needs) more accurate than all those others'?

"Several years" ago mirrorless tech was new and immature. It's been growing up fast. This is like just before Netflix and you're saying, wellll, they've been saying for years interactive TV was going to take over but where is it now...then boom! That's why Canon itself is getting into this also. I only want them to come out faster.

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

Yawn. Other companies have failed in the past, so it must be that Canon will? Along with your ad hominem above, you're showing an aptitude for logical fallacies if nothing else. We've been through this so many times on these forums that it's beyond tedious: mirrorless is not a paradigm shift like smartphones or the switch from film to digital, and Canon is much more clued up (from what we can tell) about market positioning than some of those previous examples. Mirrorless is coming, it's here, but Canon isn't losing market share, and not one of these magical Sony cameras has harmed them. So why do you believe they have to release what *you* want right now or they'll fail?
Yawn back. What makes *you* think Canon is immune to this when much bigger companies have succumbed to complacency as well.

Again, I'd like to see more of Canon, not less. When Canon release their FF mirrorless sooner rather than later and show some innovations of their own in this field, this will be a sign they're adapting to the cutting edge of new technology, which they can then trickle down to their other products as is their practice. That happens, it'll be a good thing, not bad.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2017, 12:29:16 PM »
It's a popular and widespread view, but the real question is *when*? People were saying mirrorless was about to overtake DSLRs for several years now, and it hasn't happened. Why is it suddenly urgent now?

Because the a9.  Sure, it didn't happen with the a7.  Or the a7R.  Or the A7S.  Or the a7RII.  All of which were much more in line with prosumer FF dSLR pricing.  But it's going to happen with the much more expensive a9.  Why now?  Because benkam says so.  You can take that to the benk.

Incidentally, it seems the MacOS spelling autocorrect has the OP's number pretty clearly.   ;D
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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2017, 12:29:16 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2017, 12:36:24 PM »
We have to remember that one buys more than a body, they buy a SYSTEM. You need the body, but you also need things like lenses, flashes, and software. The camera's ergonomics have to match your needs. The price has to match your range.

There is no such thing as a "killer" camera, from ANY company!
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bholliman

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2017, 12:48:11 PM »
I will say this... I am thinking about the 1dX Mark II, and I'm currently borrowing one from CPS to evaluate.

These specs are impressive enough for me to think about Sony, despite my personal experience with their terrible service.

I'd need to see some weather proofing, decent AF on Canon native glass with adapter. But it's now in the consideration envelope.

Just curious, what specs/features would make you consider an a9 over a 1DxII?  Both cost more than what I'm willing to spend as an amature/enthusiast, so I'm just an interested observer.  But, what would the a9 give you that the 1DxII can't?
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Mikehit

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2017, 12:48:31 PM »


Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?

You are AvTvM in disguise! Any person who disagrees with your outlook must be a Canon employee!

Well, I don't expect Canon to be the first to release a FF mirrorless for the obvious reason they can't be that anymore, right?


I like their cameras, that's it, and I've found myself yearning for an EVF and silent operation and all that so I'd like Canon to continue supplying that camera as I'm aiming to jump to full frame. I'd prefer that but I'm not ideologically attached to the brand.

Mirrorless is the future. *ducks in a predominantly DSLR forum*


Mirrorless is the future. No-one denies that. The question is how quickly do other companies need to introduce their technology to avoid the pitfalls you describe. I am not convinced it is as urgent as you (or AvTvM) believe it is. Sony have mirrorless technology but have a poor lens line-up and piss-poor after sales service.
Canon have strong base, excellent gear line up and great after-sales service. I don't care how good the A9 is - if they cannot back it up with reliable service, professionals as a whole will not adopt the system.

Canon must move more quickly in this arena and not be complacent. As a user, I'd prefer to have the option of a Canon mirrorless FF in 2017 or early 2018 rather than in 2020 or 2025. I don't get why that idea is supposed to be a bad thing.

Define 'more quickly'. More quickly than what?
Their mirrorless sales are doing well, and each model iteration closes the gap with Sony.  Why is full-frame mirrorless so important when the majority market (and the money spinner) is covered by the M series?
Where is the market imperative to rush out a FF mirrorless?
AvTvM could not answer that one, and I doubt you can.

benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2017, 01:02:43 PM »
Define 'more quickly'. More quickly than what?
Their mirrorless sales are doing well, and each model iteration closes the gap with Sony.  Why is full-frame mirrorless so important when the majority market (and the money spinner) is covered by the M series?
Where is the market imperative to rush out a FF mirrorless?
AvTvM could not answer that one, and I doubt you can.

 I'd like Canon to release their first mirrorless FF, probably a 6D-level, as soon as this year or early next year. Because it'll take then time to release their more advanced models will come after that and then those will take even more time. The later they delay they release their FF ML, the more behind they are.

So when do you want Canon to release their first FF mirrorless? 2020? 2025? And why? Answer that.

The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation. Canon release their first FF mirrorless in 2020 or 2025 that'll be too far into the future. Mirrorless is the future so I'd like it to be seriously part of their present sooner rather than the later.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2017, 01:04:49 PM »
Just curious, what specs/features would make you consider an a9 over a 1DxII?  Both cost more than what I'm willing to spend as an amature/enthusiast, so I'm just an interested observer.  But, what would the a9 give you that the 1DxII can't?

It's funny you just asked that as PP just tried to lay out a few arguments for such a move:
https://petapixel.com/2017/04/20/sony-a9-feature-will-make-pros-switch/

My gut is less about any single feature so much as the A9 attempts to -- at a feature spec-sheet level -- to say yes to more 'Can it do that?' questions.

Can it shoot at high FPS with continually tracking AF?  Yes.
Can it shoot 4K without major strings attached?  Believe so. (I'm sure people want codec X or 60 fps, but no crop is pretty nice)
Does it have a boatload of AF points?  Yes
Does it have a tilty-flippy?  Yes
Does it have dual cards?  Yes
Can I adapt other mounts' glass? Yes
Does it have support for manual focus lenses?  Yes
Can it amplify the viewfinder in a dark room?  Yes

But...


Does it capture color correctly?
Is the tracking AF always working or does it get locked out sometimes?
Are you always getting 14 bit uncompressed RAW?
Do you really think it could survive rough-handling or a drop like a 1D series (or even 5D series) could?
Do they offer mechanically focusing lenses?
Is there a chunky grip for comfortably holding big lenses?
Is there room for your fingers when you use a big lens?
Have their menus and controls improved?
Do they have 80+ native lenses currently in production like Canon does?
Do they have great customer service?
Do they have many 3rd party options for lenses, flashes, accessories, etc.?

...so yes, they've jammed a lot into the this new rig, but it appears that they're just overloading the 'horsepower specs' (sensor, MP, fps, AF points, etc.) rather than fleshing out a more robust and comprehensive platform.

They will get some pros with the A9, but I'm not certain those pros will be happy with the system they've migrated to.

- A
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 01:08:48 PM by ahsanford »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2017, 01:09:53 PM »
The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation.

So, your business degree is from Bob's Tackle Shop and School for Business and Stuff?  You should have checked their accreditation status before matriculating... 

But on the other hand, if you define 'lead in innovation' as making the products that you specifically want, that makes perfect sense.

You are AvTvM in disguise! Any person who disagrees with your outlook must be a Canon employee!

...and unless Canon does what I want, they are doomed.  Yep, sounds a lot like AvTvM.
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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2017, 01:09:53 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2017, 01:26:51 PM »
The market imperative is that as industry leader, they are expected to continue to lead in innovation.

Nonsense.  Let me get this straight:  Canon is supposed to lead in innovation rate because 'they are expected to?'  Proud idiots run businesses that way.

Canon's job is simple: fulfill the goals of its leadership -- typically this comes in the form of profitability, market share, sales growth, etc.  And that's exactly what they are doing. 

- A

ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2017, 01:31:23 PM »
Why no weather sealing?

I thought I saw that the A9 was sealed, but apparently not?  This is all I found from the Sony launch website.  This would appear that they are in some tap-dancing middle ground between claiming it is weather-sealed vs. not saying anything at all.

Please let me know if I missed something in the announcement about this. 

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2017, 01:31:23 PM »