October 19, 2017, 09:44:26 PM

Author Topic: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer  (Read 63406 times)

ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2017, 10:38:34 AM »
also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down.  need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

RRC, I've seen most of the critiques / fine print spoken about elsewhere, but I didn't know an electronic shutter stopped down the lens for some reason.  Educate me, please -- what's that all about?

#learning

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2017, 10:38:34 AM »

benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2017, 10:44:10 AM »
A "cogent" response to your smugness? You start with the personal attacks, this is exactly what you deserve.

I don't 'deserve' anything.  If you want to post a topic making a claim, and are subsequently unable to defend that claim against logical arguments and evidence, that's your problem (one of many, I'm sure), not mine.

But since your are evidently unable to do anything but repetitively toss out the same meaningless insult, you've at least made it clear that there's no point in further discussion (not that logic and evidence countered by petulant name calling actually constitutes a discussion).  Enjoy your day.

Oh yes you do. I'm here for reasoned discussion but when you sneak in personal attacks, I stop hearing you. That's what you deserve. I don't care if you have more posts than photos. With your smugness, your opinion is of no value to me. None.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2017, 11:13:12 AM »
also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down.  need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

RRC, I've seen most of the critiques / fine print spoken about elsewhere, but I didn't know an electronic shutter stopped down the lens for some reason.  Educate me, please -- what's that all about?

#learning

He is referring to the fact that some Sony cameras perform focusing with the lens stopped down. It appears to be dependent upon body, lens (native versus adapted) and shooting mode.

Of relevance to this discussion is that, for example, the a7RII in AF-C mode (= Canon AI servo)  takes the first shot with the lens wide open, but then performs AF tracking with the lens at your selected aperture for shooting.  So, if you are at f/5.6 or f/8, that means you're losing accuracy for PDAF, and losing light for CDAF...in other words, AF performance suffers.
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ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2017, 11:54:22 AM »
also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down.  need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

RRC, I've seen most of the critiques / fine print spoken about elsewhere, but I didn't know an electronic shutter stopped down the lens for some reason.  Educate me, please -- what's that all about?

#learning

He is referring to the fact that some Sony cameras perform focusing with the lens stopped down. It appears to be dependent upon body, lens (native versus adapted) and shooting mode.

Of relevance to this discussion is that, for example, the a7RII in AF-C mode (= Canon AI servo)  takes the first shot with the lens wide open, but then performs AF tracking with the lens at your selected aperture for shooting.  So, if you are at f/5.6 or f/8, that means you're losing accuracy for PDAF, and losing light for CDAF...in other words, AF performance suffers.

Ah, so it's not actually stopping down the lens further than that which you intend to capture the image -- it's stopping down the lens narrower than an ideal aperture during servo AF use?  (Did I get that right?)

If so, thanks and interesting.

- A

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2017, 11:58:19 AM »
Ah, so it's not actually stopping down the lens further than that which you intend to capture the image -- it's stopping down the lens narrower than an ideal aperture during servo AF use?  (Did I get that right?)

If so, thanks and interesting.

That's my understanding.  But I also recall having read that with fast primes (f/1.4, etc.), it stops down for AF even with a wide open aperture selected for the shot.  I'm not sure if that's true, though.
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ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2017, 12:09:01 PM »
Ah, so it's not actually stopping down the lens further than that which you intend to capture the image -- it's stopping down the lens narrower than an ideal aperture during servo AF use?  (Did I get that right?)

If so, thanks and interesting.

That's my understanding.  But I also recall having read that with fast primes (f/1.4, etc.), it stops down for AF even with a wide open aperture selected for the shot.  I'm not sure if that's true, though.

It's worth a read in their manuals.  When it comes to AF and high speed shooting on the A99-II, for instance, there was fine. print. for. days. that you had to cross-reference to back out what the real situation was.  Some older lenses had AF locked (forget aperture for AF, I'm talking AF at all) after the first exposure, while screamingly high fps rates were only possible with compressed output.

It's offensive to me as a consumer that they somewhat mislead / cook the books to sell a spec sheet and not a camera.  Canon has it's fine print as well, but I tend to see that fine print right on the spec sheet adjacent to the spec in question (e.g. 14 fps max with mirror, 16 fps with MLU), which I find a more honorable / up-front way of doing business.

But I'll give Sony some credit:  at least they are making the fine-print available before pre-orders these days.  I think the 12 bit RAW revelation on the A7R II had a bit of a backlash they'd like to avoid in the future.

- A

JPAZ

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2017, 01:09:38 PM »
FWIW, I really like FF on my 5Diii.  My M3 is of utility because it is smaller (as are the EF-M lenses) but is not my "go to" because the mirror slapper is faster, has (imho) better IQ, and more utility.  I have a friend who shoots an A7iiR and I've tried it.  It is very nice and (except for the limited and expensive lens selection or the need for an adapter to use my Canon stable and the ergonomics when using big glass) yields better stuff than I can get out of my M3.  But, I am not changing to Sony (or Fuji or any other MILC) at this point.

My hope is that the A9 is one more impetus for Canon to continue to develop the mirrorless line.  If and when there is a FF mirrorless that is smaller and lighter than than the 5D's, I'll pay attention.
5d Mkiii; Eos-M3 and too many lenses; 430 EXii, 430 EXiii-RT and a whole lot of stuff.  Wanna buy my 17-40 my Pro-Optic (Samyang) 14 f/2.8 or my my M1?

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2017, 01:09:38 PM »

slclick

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2017, 01:29:00 PM »
Here we go, the same old tired song. Canon is doomed. Better come out with a competitor this week or bankruptcy. Yeah, let's forget product cycles and all things well, logical and mature. Enjoy your Sony, especially the firmware and service.

Don Haines

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2017, 01:37:23 PM »
We must ask ourselves a simple question.... Why would you like to go FF instead of using a crop camera?

The almost universal answer is because we want improved image quality.....

If we want improved image quality, then we also want top quality lenses....

This is the point where the argument for thin mirrorless cameras with shorter flange distances falls apart.

To get a thin mirrorless camera with a short flange distance, you need to re-design the lenses to bend the light more sharply, and when you bend the light more sharply, you end up with more distortion and more problems with chromatic aberration. This causes you to loose image quality, and that violates the reason why you went FF in the first place. The next problem occurs at the sensor. Since the light is now at more of an angle to the sensor, there is more light lost through hitting the sides of the photocells and more light lost through vignetting. Loss of light means loss of image quality and the heavier vignetting adds in more noise when you correct for it in software.

Photography is about the capture of light..... the more the better, so why throw some away? When Canon gives us a FF mirrorless, they will make sure that it is worth buying it, so expect a 5D size body and EF lenses on it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 03:44:30 PM by Don Haines »
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Duckman

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2017, 02:21:16 PM »
Looks to be an interesting camera.  I'm curious what the details are on FPS and all that...
Not a camera I'm looking to purchase (I'm way too invested in Canon) but I do think it's good overall for consumers Sony appears to be trying to push the envelope.   
 I am looking forward to when Canon releases a FF mirrorless; I truly hope they do it right out of the gate!
-J

dak723

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2017, 02:45:36 PM »
We must ask ourselves a simple question.... Why would you like to go FF instead of using a crop camera?

The almost universal answer is because we want improved image quality.....

If we want improved image quality, then we also want top quality lenses....

This is the point where the argument for thin mirrorless cameras with shorter flange distances falls apart.

To get a thin mirrorless camera with a short flange distance, you need to re-design the lenses to bend the light more sharply, and when you bend the light more sharply, you end up with more distortion and more problems with chromatic aberration. This causes you to loose image quality, and that violates the reason why you went FF in the first place. The next problem occurs at the sensor. Since the light is now at more of an angle to the sensor, there is more light lost through hitting the sides of the photocells and more light lost through vignetting. Loss of light means loss of image quality and the heavier vignetting adds in more noise when you correct for it in software.

Photography is about the capture of light. When Canon gives us a FF mirrorless, they will make sure that it is worth buying it, so expect a 5D size body and EF lenses on it.

Let us hope you are correct.  If Canon listens to photographers, then they will probably get it right.  If they listen to the spec lovers who dominate all the forums, they may feel pressured into putting out an inferior product before they are really ready (like Sony does, for example).

Ryananthony

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #101 on: April 21, 2017, 03:23:46 PM »
We must ask ourselves a simple question.... Why would you like to go FF instead of using a crop camera?

The almost universal answer is because we ant improved image quality.....

If we want improved image quality, then we also want top quality lenses....

This is the point where the argument for thin mirrorless cameras with shorter flange distances falls apart.

To get a thin mirrorless camera with a short flange distance, you need to re-design the lenses to bend the light more sharply, and when you bend the light more sharply, you end up with more distortion and more problems with chromatic aberration. This causes you to loose image quality, and that violates the reason why you went FF in the first place. The next problem occurs at the sensor. Since the light is now at more of an angle to the sensor, there is more light lost through hitting the sides of the photocells and more light lost through vignetting. Loss of light means loss of image quality and the heavier vignetting adds in more noise when you correct for it in software.

Photography is about the capture of light. When Canon gives us a FF mirrorless, they will make sure that it is worth buying it, so expect a 5D size body and EF lenses on it.

I'm rather uneducated on the topic, but would the short flange distance be the reason why sigma hasn't simply made a mount for the Sony, it is more complicated then just changing the mount?

Edit: the sigma art line up.

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #102 on: April 21, 2017, 04:00:21 PM »
We must ask ourselves a simple question.... Why would you like to go FF instead of using a crop camera?

The almost universal answer is because we ant improved image quality.....

If we want improved image quality, then we also want top quality lenses....

This is the point where the argument for thin mirrorless cameras with shorter flange distances falls apart.

To get a thin mirrorless camera with a short flange distance, you need to re-design the lenses to bend the light more sharply, and when you bend the light more sharply, you end up with more distortion and more problems with chromatic aberration. This causes you to loose image quality, and that violates the reason why you went FF in the first place. The next problem occurs at the sensor. Since the light is now at more of an angle to the sensor, there is more light lost through hitting the sides of the photocells and more light lost through vignetting. Loss of light means loss of image quality and the heavier vignetting adds in more noise when you correct for it in software.

Photography is about the capture of light. When Canon gives us a FF mirrorless, they will make sure that it is worth buying it, so expect a 5D size body and EF lenses on it.
I'm rather uneducated on the topic, but would the short flange distance be the reason why sigma hasn't simply made a mount for the Sony, it is more complicated then just changing the mount?

Edit: the sigma art line up.
Replacing a lens mount is not enough, but all optical design has to be designed for a certain distance between the flange and the image sensor. In the specific case of the Sony A7, the optical design must juggle so that the light reaches the corners of the full frame sensor.

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #102 on: April 21, 2017, 04:00:21 PM »

romanr74

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #103 on: April 21, 2017, 04:30:59 PM »
In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

Careful...your bias is showing.  Canon 'has the edge' over Sony in pro still photography?  Sure, just like China has the edge over Zimbabwe in GDP.  ::)

Sony 'rules the roost' for broadcast video gear?  For heads, sure...but last time I checked, it was kinda hard to shoot broadcast footage with just a camera head.  Who 'rules the roost' for field lenses?  In the last Sony video catalog I looked through, all their cameras were mounted on DIGISUPER lenses, although Sony thoughtfully photoshopped out the Canon logos. 


Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

Ahhh, yet another armchair business expert.  How do Wharton and HBS manage to stay afloat with all of you out there?  It seems you don't understand how a keiretsu functions.  Suffice it to say that Nikon does not have the resources of the Mitsubishi Group at their beck and call.

Did you forget to take your pills again this morning? Why don't you stick a post-it on your fridge's door to remind you!

Oh, and why don't you business expert again elaborate on how companies are legally forced to make profit? This was a wonderful laugh...

Oh, you mean the discussion where you failed to prove anything, then resorted to calling me names, exemplifying behavior typical of a petulant child?  That wasn't laughable, just rather sad.   ::)

In this case, your post implies that I'm incorrect – in which case, you appear to agree that Nikon does have access to the full resources of the Mitsubishi Group, and thus, "..if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony and Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power.

If your intent is for people to find you laughable, you're succeeding.  If you have different intentions, you should probably quit while you're behind.  Or you could try calling me names again...much like benkam you seem to have an aptitude for that, if little else.

interesting what you brain makes up for you. again, pills might help...
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scyrene

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #104 on: April 21, 2017, 06:24:29 PM »
I will say this... I am thinking about the 1dX Mark II, and I'm currently borrowing one from CPS to evaluate.

These specs are impressive enough for me to think about Sony, despite my personal experience with their terrible service.

I'd need to see some weather proofing, decent AF on Canon native glass with adapter. But it's now in the consideration envelope.

Just curious, what specs/features would make you consider an a9 over a 1DxII?  Both cost more than what I'm willing to spend as an amature/enthusiast, so I'm just an interested observer.  But, what would the a9 give you that the 1DxII can't?

One frustration I'm seeing with the 1dx2 that I have right now (must return on Friday) is that it's only 20mp. ... Sony seems to have solved the fps issue better than anyone, and the 24mp would be more adequate.

More is better (in most situations), but is 24MP really that much more than 20MP? Someone do the linear maths, please!

Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention: silence.

The 1DX2 and the 5D4 "silent" modes are like a Monty Python running gag. I'm trying to take pictures of quail coveys from 15 feet, and this might as well be a 20 gauge shotgun.

I took a picture of this guy below yesterday evening with the 1DX2 in "silent" mode. Think he stuck around?

Interesting. FWIW I've never had a subject flee at the sound of my shutter, although I've only used the 50D, 5D3 and 5Ds. The silent shutter is easily quiet enough in all situations I've encountered, or at least quieter than I am (but maybe there are fewer hunters here, so wildlife is less anxious?).
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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #104 on: April 21, 2017, 06:24:29 PM »