October 17, 2017, 08:37:10 PM

Author Topic: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer  (Read 62980 times)

Jopa

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #285 on: September 22, 2017, 03:57:02 AM »
Heck, I'm trying to find hundreds of thousands of $$ to actually develop proper lens tests with Roger Cicala.

Interesting... more details please :)

Thanks for the inquiry. We're trying to get lens reviews back off the ground but in a totally different manner: in a way that actually shows photographers the differences between lenses they may be considering to purchase for their body.

It's a very difficult problem, but one that Roger and I want to solve in a practical manner, using authoritative tests.

I can't say more right now because I don't wish to over promise. Roger is already doing the best lens testing in the world. Bar none. We want to find a way to make his data more widely available and combine it with our own measurements to corroborate, but also to visualize show the implications of his data.

It's a difficult problem but one that must be solved to help our audience and you. Take for example the fact that current flat field MTF data has little to no bearing on a lens that is used to shoot an off-center subject using an actual focus point there, off-center, because of field curvature.

No one addresses this and yet MTF test data on review sites are widely accepted. Why? They're only relevant for a brick wall.

I don't know about you but I don't shoot brick walls.

Lots of work to be done :) We are researching intensively. I wish I could spend more time just sharing our thoughts and what we're trying to do... Might keep humanize us a bit!

In the end we're here to try and serve the photographer better. We have a ways to go.

Thank you Rishi. Very looking forward to see this ^
I know Bryan / TDP is using Roger's charts for a while, but it seems like you guys want to bring this to a whole new level, hope it will work out well for you.

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #285 on: September 22, 2017, 03:57:02 AM »

Jack Douglas

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #286 on: September 22, 2017, 01:18:56 PM »
I think this desire to be relevant is commendable and I look forward to the outcome.

Rishi, I for one have never considered you "anti-canon".  I did however perceive, as others did also, that there were subtle biases evident in the odd statement that you made. 

Obviously, you did not agree and you stated that, which could have been the end of it.  However, no one likes to see themselves as a victim of what they perceive as false statements and there is a tendency to engage when the opposite choice would likely be better.

The longer the engagement the more likely it is that either party will make some poorly thought out/emotional statement with bystanders only to accommodating to join the "fun".  It's a waste of everyone's time and even the fun factor wears thin.

There is only one solution.  Having summarized your position, refrain from further responses/rebuttals. Your talents are far to great to be wasting time on this topic.

Jack
1DX2   11-24 F4   24-70 F4   70-200 F2.8 II   300 F2.8 II   1.4X III   2X III   400 DO F4 II 

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unfocused

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #287 on: September 22, 2017, 02:47:21 PM »
...But what's not amusing to me is a user who is on a dedicated campaign via tens (hundreds?) of posts to prove that I am pro-Sony? pro-Nikon? oh-I-don't-know-but-def-anti-Canon. With poor/no/mis-extrapolated data...

...People promulgating ridiculous assertions that are untrue prompt me to respond. My apologies if that offends anyone...

...The disconnect between what some people here on CR think and reality is so vast I often find it difficult not to chime in...

I agree. Personally, I have found the feud/vendetta against DPR that was largely started by one individual and taken up by others to be an embarrassment to this entire site.

My own oft-stated opinion has not changed and will not change. Review sites exist to offer readers the opinions of the reviewers. Absolute impartiality is neither possible nor desirable. The purpose of a review is to learn what a reviewer thinks of a product. Readers should then judge for themselves whether or not the reviewer's assessment is accurate or not. And, if it is relevant to their use.

In my case, I have found DPR's critiques of Canon products to be generally accurate and fair. Fawning reviews are worthless and the ridiculous parsing of the language of DPR reviews that occurs on this site (They described Canon this way! They Described Nikon this way! Therefore they hate Canon and love Nikon!!!) can be just plain silly.


privatebydesign

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #288 on: September 22, 2017, 03:16:02 PM »
I find it embarrassing too. How anybody who purports to offer unbiased controlled and semi controlled testing can claim personal reasons as a legitimate excuse for hiding their data is scandalous and strikes to the very heart of their honesty openness and transparency.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

rishi_sanyal

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #289 on: September 22, 2017, 09:37:40 PM »
I find it embarrassing too. How anybody who purports to offer unbiased controlled and semi controlled testing can claim personal reasons as a legitimate excuse for hiding their data is scandalous and strikes to the very heart of their honesty openness and transparency.

Choosing not to respond to threats by acquiescing to them is not a 'personal reason'. It's a policy that avoids bullying.

I have personally made tens to hundreds of Raw files publicly available showing the same exact thing on DPReview.com, and the fact that you won't rest till you see this one file points to a personal vendetta on your part, not 'personal reasons' on mine.

I agree with others here though, particularly Jack, so I will respectfully bow out now.

john kriegsmann

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #290 on: October 06, 2017, 11:50:44 AM »
Canon will never catch up to Sony in the mirrorless area. its too late for them, they got such a late start. I love Canon and have bought their cameras for over 20 years. They make great bodies, and super lenses. Their bodies have simple and intuitive controls. What they lack and have lacked for the past decade is cutting edge sensor technology.
I do not like Sony bodies, they are more computers than cameras with extremely deep and multi layered menus for even basic camera functions. What they do have is cutting edge sensors and good form factors for their lenses and mirrorless bodies. Fuji is another innovative camera company that has come from know where to lead the cropped sensor mirrorless market with innovative bodies and small, high quality lenses. Canon's M5- meh!

dak723

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #291 on: October 06, 2017, 12:24:47 PM »
Canon will never catch up to Sony in the mirrorless area. its too late for them, they got such a late start. I love Canon and have bought their cameras for over 20 years. They make great bodies, and super lenses. Their bodies have simple and intuitive controls. What they lack and have lacked for the past decade is cutting edge sensor technology.
I do not like Sony bodies, they are more computers than cameras with extremely deep and multi layered menus for even basic camera functions. What they do have is cutting edge sensors and good form factors for their lenses and mirrorless bodies. Fuji is another innovative camera company that has come from know where to lead the cropped sensor mirrorless market with innovative bodies and small, high quality lenses. Canon's M5- meh!

Funny, I bought Sony mirrorless and thought it was the worst camera I ever bought.  And then a couple years later I bought the Canon M5...and I love it!  Small, light, the lenses are excellent and it takes great photos. 

Sony may innovate, but all those bells and whistles don't mean much when their color is sub-par.  Until Sony can produce beautiful color, their cameras will always be sub-par.  And their lenses aren't anywhere near the quality of Canon either.  But I guess all those "innovations" make up for that. 

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #291 on: October 06, 2017, 12:24:47 PM »

Jack Douglas

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #292 on: October 06, 2017, 02:11:36 PM »
For me, if I don't like using something, like I get irritated by the way it works or lack of features, it spoils my fun factor.  Since I'm not earning money with my camera, what is there if there if it isn't fun.  Of course viewing a lovely shot with great IQ is also part of the fun. 

No camera is perfect so it comes down to what is disappointing vs. what is irritating and annoying.  When I read:

"I do not like Sony bodies, they are more computers than cameras with extremely deep and multi layered menus for even basic camera functions.",

that's enough for me, especially when virtually all higher quality cameras are producing very decent photos.  Endless debate. 

Jack

1DX2   11-24 F4   24-70 F4   70-200 F2.8 II   300 F2.8 II   1.4X III   2X III   400 DO F4 II 

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Jopa

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #293 on: October 06, 2017, 05:23:01 PM »
Canon will never catch up to Sony in the mirrorless area. its too late for them, they got such a late start. I love Canon and have bought their cameras for over 20 years. They make great bodies, and super lenses. Their bodies have simple and intuitive controls. What they lack and have lacked for the past decade is cutting edge sensor technology.
I do not like Sony bodies, they are more computers than cameras with extremely deep and multi layered menus for even basic camera functions. What they do have is cutting edge sensors and good form factors for their lenses and mirrorless bodies. Fuji is another innovative camera company that has come from know where to lead the cropped sensor mirrorless market with innovative bodies and small, high quality lenses. Canon's M5- meh!

Nikon now offers the best sensors, take a look at DxO. And it's not even made by Sony. Time do jump ship from Sony to Nikon! If you jump ship every year or even sooner, you'll be chosen as a best customer of all camera manufactures ;)

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #293 on: October 06, 2017, 05:23:01 PM »