July 30, 2014, 06:39:39 AM

Poll

How does Canon respond to the D800?

High MP (30-36mp) body with price to match $3k
35 (15.1%)
Hi DR;  mid MP (21-24mp) body with improved AF priced $2.5-3k
95 (40.9%)
Hi DR lower MP (18-21mp) body with great ISO priced $2300 -$2500
40 (17.2%)
Mini/crippled  1Dx @ $3000
23 (9.9%)
Awin's Shove it in Nikon's face 40MP+ monster priced at $3k
39 (16.8%)

Total Members Voted: 188

Voting closed: February 10, 2012, 02:50:59 PM

Author Topic: How does Canon respond to the D800?  (Read 34443 times)

unfocused

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 04:20:58 PM »
Canon Rumors guy was spot on with the 1Dx. I have no reason to think he's wrong about the 5DIII: 22 mp, Significantly improved autofocus, new battery grip with joystick.

I think Canon's market research showed their customers happy with 21 mp, but wanting better autofocus, higher ISO, low noise and better dynamic range. I think Nikon's market research showed people were happy with their ISO, noise, autofocus and dynamic range, but wanted better resolution.

Nikon may have overcompensated for their past megapixel shortcomings. Maybe Canon will overcompensate in autofocus, noise, ISO and dynamic range.

It will be very interesting if the two major manufacturers really do go in different directions.
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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 04:20:58 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 04:23:06 PM »
Obviously, the higher the MP, the more noise you are going to get at high ISO, or at least the more the noise will be magnified.

Your statement make no sense!
The number of MP itself will not affect the amout of noise but the higher MP sensor will give a higher image quality (less noise vs resolution) than a lower MP sensor at high ISO because of the efficiency of nose reduction algorithms.

The more MP, the higher the pixel density of the sensor and you are going to get increased noise throughout the ISO range... you are going to get more detail as well, but see the 7D if you have any doubts about my statements...  People have on this very forum griped about ISO noise on a 18MP crop sensor at ISO 100?!?  You can combat this slightly with new processors, Digic for canon, expeed for nikon and the conversion software, but it is what it is. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

awinphoto

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 04:23:40 PM »
Canon Rumors guy was spot on with the 1Dx. I have no reason to think he's wrong about the 5DIII: 22 mp, Significantly improved autofocus, new battery grip with joystick.

I think Canon's market research showed their customers happy with 21 mp, but wanting better autofocus, higher ISO, low noise and better dynamic range. I think Nikon's market research showed people were happy with their ISO, noise, autofocus and dynamic range, but wanted better resolution.

Nikon may have overcompensated for their past megapixel shortcomings. Maybe Canon will overcompensate in autofocus, noise, ISO and dynamic range.

It will be very interesting if the two major manufacturers really do go in different directions.

+1
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

unruled

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 04:28:36 PM »
in the last 2 years canon has been raving about how photogs have been asking for high MP. they went from 10->~18. it would seem weird to me if suddenly they say 18 ( or 22) is enough.

and Nikon who stayed behind on lower MPs for years now leapfrogs.

K-amps

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 04:36:25 PM »
I do think Nikon overcompensated, but it also has to do with what Sony could deliver in terms of sensors. Often the design is limited by the Technology/ supply chain available to a manufacturer. Nikon wanted to respond to the market with a high MP body(s)... Sony made the sensor available to them and they went for it.

In case of Canon, I think they realize that the 18-22mp is the sweet spot for enough resolution/DR/ISO/Noise/Airydisc. I think they will stay at this level for a while. This optimum combinition can satisfy a very high number of customers.

If CR Guy's numbers are spot on.... I have my funds saved up. I will pull the plug on the 5D3 as soon as pre-orders are available!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 04:38:40 PM by K-amps »
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awinphoto

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 04:44:21 PM »
The more MP, the higher the pixel density of the sensor and you are going to get increased noise throughout the ISO range... you are going to get more detail as well, but see the 7D if you have any doubts about my statements...  People have on this very forum griped about ISO noise on a 18MP crop sensor at ISO 100?!?  You can combat this slightly with new processors, Digic for canon, expeed for nikon and the conversion software, but it is what it is.

A higher MP sensor will not give more image noise than a lower MP sensor at high ISO. The image quality will be better for the higher MP at final image.
About the 7D it outperforms 5Dmk2 per area unit at high ISO.

That's why the 5d2 has about a 1.3 stop advantage in high ISO? 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

pedro

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 05:17:23 PM »
Canon Rumors guy was spot on with the 1Dx. I have no reason to think he's wrong about the 5DIII: 22 mp, Significantly improved autofocus, new battery grip with joystick.

Hopefully he's again. I am all for a mini 1Dx. Time will tell 8)
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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 05:17:23 PM »

Picsfor

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 05:28:53 PM »
If Canon want my money to upgrade my 5D2's, they either have to bring the 1Dx to street at about £4k or just over - or release a successor to the 5D2 that has improved AF, Dual Memory Card Slot and improved ISO. Oh, and the sweetener would be that BG with the duplicated joystick!

I don't need more MP, i don't need a higher frame rate, i don't need a pro body or the extra weather sealing that comes with a pro body. All that the 5D2 offer suits me a treat except for the AF. But that's why i said it would need the other improvements, because i wouldn't trade up just for improved AF that comes with, say, 9 full cross AF points.

My original thoughts about MP were founded when i took my first portrait shot with the 5D2 - 21mp is plenty enough, if not a little too much. For all other areas it's acceptable - but i wouldn't want to go any higher, not until i've upped my iMac with the latest all singing all dancing model and Adobe LR 4, 5 or 6!

DBCdp

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 05:34:07 PM »


A higher MP sensor will not give more image noise than a lower MP sensor at high ISO. The image quality will be better for the higher MP at final image.
About the 7D it outperforms 5Dmk2 per area unit at high ISO.
[/quote]

I have shot weddings recently with the 5D, 7D and 5D MkII, the 7D images in the various wedding settings failed to match even the 5D Classic in image quality. Argue what you will, I have thousands of pictures that tell the real story.

wickidwombat

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 06:17:55 PM »
The more MP, the higher the pixel density of the sensor and you are going to get increased noise throughout the ISO range... you are going to get more detail as well, but see the 7D if you have any doubts about my statements...  People have on this very forum griped about ISO noise on a 18MP crop sensor at ISO 100?!?  You can combat this slightly with new processors, Digic for canon, expeed for nikon and the conversion software, but it is what it is.

A higher MP sensor will not give more image noise than a lower MP sensor at high ISO. The image quality will be better for the higher MP at final image.
About the 7D it outperforms 5Dmk2 per area unit at high ISO.

I dont think so, I REALLY wanted the 7D IQ to be better than my 1D mk3 so i could put the beast out as a backup and have a smaller camera with the 17-55 f2.8 for weddings but when I compared the IQ of final images i just wasn't satisfied with the 7D I am eagerly looking to see what the 7D2 does though. So for me the best upgrade path for that body right now is a 1Dmk4
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CrimsonBlue

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 06:27:24 PM »
Canon doesn't respond -- it releases what has been in the pipeline for 2+ years.  You can't retool a whole set of features a la carte. 

With the unnamed super high-end video and unannounced still backs, it wouldn't make sense for the 5D to go much past 25MP -- especially if that draws attention to the MP difference with the 1DX.  They are both full-frame, so Canon can't be two-faced in the approach to MP.

Methinks an 18-24MP body with slightly improved AF, but nothing like the D800. 
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te4o

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 06:45:41 PM »
I don't know how Canon can respond to this camera without making a huge leap in in-camera IQ improvement.
Read and see here http://cliffmautner.typepad.com/  - the guy states NO Flash, no exposure compensation... Well, if the next gen DSLR are like this then ... my goodness ! Seems that there is a lot of automatic adjustments the D800 does to improve/compensate for any high ISO noise. Yes, there will be noise but heck, the 5D2 crowd has been putting up with it quite well up till now.
Let's just hope Canon as a big camera manufacturer does not disappoint with the bells and whistles - there appears to be a lot more to digital imaging nowadays than just MP, AF points and noise management. I hope there are DIGIC5 applications in camera that will at least match the D800's.
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te4o

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 07:12:58 PM »
Or Canon should simply respond by engineering an EF-to-Nikon lens adapter... :o 8) ??? ::) :P
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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 07:12:58 PM »

Stu_bert

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 07:39:34 PM »
Just like Nikon is pursuing multiple offerings, so is Canon. These have been in development for the past 3 years, and the tech is being released for the current generation of bodies just as the new projects kick off for the next gen in 2014/2015.

Canon perhaps has it more difficult as it is producing both the sensor & supporting processors, whereas for at least a significant amount, Nikon uses Sony sensors. Nikon only has the imaging business, and their focus not unreasonably results in aggressive products - which is good for everyone. And Sony still want to play heavily in the digital camera market for all sorts of reasons which is also good for competition.

My guess is there will be 2 further Canon dSLRs this year. One as CR guy states in March and a "larger MP" one in the Autumn if the D800 goes well.

I think the March release will aim squarely at a 24MP camera from Nikon / Sony. Just not sure about the FF/APS-C piece. I think this will be a different camera to try and disrupt Nikon.

How large a MP the autumn release will be does depend on the success of Nikon, but clearly a newer version of the 7D sensor upsized to FF with better processing by a Digic 5+ will probably stand them well.

I don't think Canon is panicking in any way, they're just playing cat n mouse with Nikon & Sony. Some of the participants in this forum, clearly are more worried than Canon  :D
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sjprg

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 08:01:29 PM »
Regardless of all the blah, blah, go look at the published 30 MB jpegs from the D800E. The proof is in the pudding. If Canon doesn't respond by April they have just lost another customer. My 1DSIII can't hold a candle to even the jpegs out of the D800E. I've shot Canons 35s all my adult life, but I will soon be gone to Nikon. Mamiya MF you better look out. DSLRs are closeing fast. AND there are a lot more landscape photographers than the head in the sand mainstream posters realize.

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Re: How does Canon respond to the D800?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 08:01:29 PM »