July 21, 2018, 03:42:26 PM

Author Topic: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV  (Read 24538 times)

Busted Knuckles

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 199
  • Enjoy this breath and the next
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2017, 07:43:08 PM »
Oh yea, I really didn't dump on Canon - I pointed out that they left a hole that someone else is filling
Way too much gear to list, terminal GAS.  Grand kids will have to buy their own cars.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2017, 07:43:08 PM »

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2632
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2017, 05:16:18 AM »


I hate to answer a question with a question but......  Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish? 



No. But when in your OP you say
Quote
The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.
(my emphasis)

and from that it is clear that you place video higher on your list than most stills shooters do. And that is the nub of the issue. You (like others) want a Sony-standard 4k. Canon on the other hand made a decision that the 4k they have put in the camera suit the way most people what shoot stills with a bit of video go about it. Canon reckons that those sort of casual videographers don't spend time post-editing so don't need the full capability Sony offers.
Canon is doing what it does best - looks after the market as a whole.



Quote
Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc
Remind me what their market share is again. And can you offer any data on how the arrival of the A7Rii boosted their market - this last one is out of interest because I have no idea.

jeffa4444

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1322
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2017, 11:09:34 AM »
Mercedes &BMW are still a profitable automobile manufacturers, but you have to admit the brand managers blew it some 20 years ago by not crushing the upstart Japanese entrants into to the luxo market.  And now there is even the Korean entrants.... so much for being content with modest growth, etc.

Canon will continue to be a profitable imaging device company, There is still a bit of cache left to the Merc, but the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip and both those institutional brands are scrambling to get to the front of the parade.  And scrambling in a ham handed way.

I just took the 5DmkIV for a 2 week spin.  Yes it produced great still images..... as did the Sony...  But when I went to video mode.... well I don't want to be known a basher so I will leave it there.

Canon for all the world feels like the lumbering Mercedes of the early 90s trying to get it's head wrapped around the demands of the younger generation.  You have to admit Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc.  And perhaps shortly Canon will glide path into a feature competitive offering while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage until they land on the right config.

I can remember the debates of the establishment PDA (palm pilot) expressing that people really didn't want a swiss army knife does it all single device.......  If you can remember palm pilot or even fortunately the Apple Note..... 

The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Yep pretty disappointed in the Mk IV and won't be upgrading anytime soon.  If I do it will be a brand change.

In the last few months Ive driven a Mercedes GLC, C Class, E Class, a Jaguar XF all after having a BMW 5 series for years (various models). I also drove Lexus, Kia, Honda but ultimately I'm going back to the new BMW 5 Series. The Germans have the Koreans and Japanese beat particularly BMW I don't know what cars you've driven but frankly your wrong all the luxury German brands are up on sales globally.

I have the Canon 5DS, 6D and have spent the last week using a company 5D MKIV. For the UK price the MKIV is over-valued and unless the price drops below £ 3K then I will not be purchasing one, period. If the 6D MKII is a worthy successor then I will be purchasing one.
Canon 5DS, Canon 6D, Canon 6D MKII,16-35 f4L IS USM, 17-40 f4L USM, 28 f2.8, 24-70mm f4L IS USM, 24-105 f4L IS USM, 100mm f2.8L IS USM, 70-200 f2.8L IS USM II, 70-300 f4-5.6 IS USM, 50 f1.8 STM, 100-400mm f4.5-5.6L IS USM II, 1.4EX III, EOS 760D, EF-S 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM & others.

docsmith

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 672
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2017, 04:02:52 PM »
Giggle and snort, never mentioned size nor weight as an issue - though it would be part of ergonomics.

I hate to answer a question with a question but......  Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish? 

As to buffer on 20 fps good point - haven't seen the stats on that, though SD cards can write 300 ish m/s.  Though it is a fair question what the buffer clear will be.  And 300 should suit 4k at 60 fps.  Boggles the mind what the file size would be.

Actually, I am not even sure you mentioned ergonomics....nor really what you preferred with some Sony camera.

But...if we are just talking general market strategy, where I disagree with you is that BMW/Mercedes likely had very limited ability to stop the evolution of Lexus, Acura, etc.  Change is inevitable.  Competition is going to come and go.  In all likelihood, BMW/Mercedes did the best they could at specific moments.  I doubt an evolved/mature luxury car market was ever going to be dominated by just two manufacturers.

Same is true with cameras.  I expect there to be competition in a mature camera market.  Sony, Nikon, whomever.  In 10 years, someone else will likely rise up.  No big deal as long as Canon takes care of their business, which they have.  They have a distinctive edge in many ways (lenses, big lenses, action/sports, etc), are among the class leaders in others (portrait/event photography), may be lagging behind in some specific ways but have recent solid entrants (sensors/mirrorless), and are leaving part of the market to others (still cameras with 4K video), for now. 

Overall, I'd take that business along with the market share every day of the week.  It's really very remarkable.

Of course, that isn't taking anything away from Sony, who have had some great innovations and grown their market share.  Actually, I do not care much about 4K video, but have to admit, I'd like to have the high fps video as I think that would be fun to play with.  If anything, Nikon is the group that has recently fallen, but I hope they gather themselves and I like some of their recent lens releases (105 f/1.4).

Kit Lens Jockey

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 175
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2017, 11:46:52 AM »
I was impressed by the things the A9 had when it was announced, but I feel very little draw to switch from Canon.

Either one of the current cameras have the capability to take better photos or videos than anything that was available even a few years ago. With the overall level that camera technology is at, if you are not able to capture something amazing with either an A9 or a 5D4, switching to the other is probably not going to give you the ability to do that.

Face it, all we're doing is sitting around arguing which paintbrush has slightly stiffer bristles.

Sporgon

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3599
  • 5% of gear used 95% of the time
    • www.buildingpanoramics.com
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2017, 12:15:54 PM »

You know why I like the BMW?

it's a pure driving machine

We could argue over that ! Marketing hype. Try taking one of the recent BMWs on the track with all the electronic traction and stability controls switched off. With the exception of a couple of the 'M's they are dogs. Personally I think BMW have sold their souls to the American market.

If you want to try something that is close to the 'pure driving machine' try something like a Caterham Super 7  :D

However I agree with you on Canon  ;)

Jerryrigged

  • PowerShot G7 X Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • CANON 6D
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2017, 07:13:04 PM »
I'm really liking my 5D4.  I also just started to shoot more video.  Nevertheless, most of my wedding gigs for this year are for photography, and only a few for videography. So the 5D4 is a really great solution for me.  However, I also picked up a Sony A6500 to help with the video chores and as a light camera to use on a gimbal.  The Sony produces really nice video, and I've worked with it just enough to get video settings dialed in so I rarely have to do a deep dive into the terrible menu system.  The 5D4, while not getting much love for video still has some really compelling video features.  The dual pixel autofocus works amazing, the operation of the camera is just so intuitive, it is a pleasure to use. AND, the video looks beautiful... whether I'm shooting 4K or 1080p. To get me though a day - not knowing exactly how much I'll shoot 4K and how much will be 1080p, I also invested in 256 GB CF and SD cards (the SD card selected to ensure it can keep up with Canon's massive 500 Mbps data rate). By the way, as a long time Quality Manager, I've always felt the most important feature of anything you buy is the reliability... so I'll take the Lexus or Toyota any day!
Canon 6D (2x), 24-70 f/2.8L II, 35mm f/1.4L II, 50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8L Macro, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2017, 07:13:04 PM »

quod

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2017, 09:00:47 PM »
So far, Canon still has the glass to beat.
Until you shoot Zeiss.

Ian_of_glos

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2017, 06:55:55 AM »
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
There were a lot of negative reviews of the 5D mk4 when it first came out, mostly from the video community and I must confess that this caused me to delay my decision to upgrade from the 5D mk 3. However, last week I finally decided to buy a 5D mk4 and all I can say is that I wish I had done so sooner.
There are many small improvements that add up to a much better overall package than the mk3, even if there is no one remarkable feature that is a game changer.
I particularly like are the improved image quality as it really shows what some of my better lenses can do. Also I like the rear LCD monitor which is a lot clearer, much better than the mk3, and its ability to focus very quickly even when it is almost dark.
Yes, I know it is possible to buy a camera that having better video features, but I find that 1080p is more than adequate for what I do. 
Knowing what I know now I would definitely make the same decision again and this time I would not hesitate before upgrading.

Rockskipper

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 33
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2017, 09:21:27 AM »
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
There were a lot of negative reviews of the 5D mk4 when it first came out, mostly from the video community and I must confess that this caused me to delay my decision to upgrade from the 5D mk 3. However, last week I finally decided to buy a 5D mk4 and all I can say is that I wish I had done so sooner.

Knowing what I know now I would definitely make the same decision again and this time I would not hesitate before upgrading.

Thanks for your comment - am ordering one today from Canon.

arthurbikemad

  • EOS 6D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 435
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2017, 10:24:34 AM »
Me too, even though DPAF/touch screen AF and the new metering etc etc is no big upgrade from my Mk3  ::)

LonelyBoy

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 745
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2017, 10:42:35 AM »
The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Cool story bro.  Only, your ex (no wonder she's your ex, btw) wanted both the PDA and the phone.  Rolling video into my DSLR doesn't help me not carry around a video camera; it makes me subsidize your camera.  Personally, I wish they'd all drop the video features from DSLRs and all the self-righteous video shooters would buy video cameras or cry themselves to sleep at night.  Then I could lick up all the tears like Cartman.

unfocused

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4213
    • Mark Gordon Communications
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2017, 12:10:34 PM »
Rolling video into my DSLR doesn't help me not carry around a video camera; it makes me subsidize your camera.  Personally, I wish they'd all drop the video features from DSLRs and all the self-righteous video shooters would buy video cameras or cry themselves to sleep at night...

How many times do we have to listen to this?

Having video features on a DSLR takes nothing away from a stills camera. It doesn't add a penny to the cost. In fact, it reduces the cost.

I may never use video on my DSLRs, but I certainly am not going to begrudge anyone who does.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2017, 12:10:34 PM »

K

  • EOS 6D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2017, 01:31:22 PM »
So far, Canon still has the glass to beat.


This is a fact. Will not deny it.

However, Nikon glass, for any reasonable and practical purpose outside of the most fanatical pixel peeping scrutiny - is just as good in 95% of cases and pretty darn close in the rest. I'm not aware of any lens of Nikon that beats Canon, but there might be 1 or 2.

If you can't deliver top level results with Nikon's top of the line glass, the problem is not the gear.

I think this is overemphasized in order to justify the weaker in features Canon bodies.

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2632
Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2017, 01:42:38 PM »
Rolling video into my DSLR doesn't help me not carry around a video camera; it makes me subsidize your camera.  Personally, I wish they'd all drop the video features from DSLRs and all the self-righteous video shooters would buy video cameras or cry themselves to sleep at night...

How many times do we have to listen to this?

Having video features on a DSLR takes nothing away from a stills camera. It doesn't add a penny to the cost. In fact, it reduces the cost.

I may never use video on my DSLRs, but I certainly am not going to begrudge anyone who does.

What makes you think adding video to a stills camera does not add a penny to the cost?
You can argue (and I suspect you are) that adding it widens the market for the camera and so adds sales where the income offsets the cost of adding video, but that is one massive set of assumptions.
So you have to ask 'if we did not add video would sales drop'. It may well do considering specs drive the sale-ability and the quality of reviews from people who merely measure against the spec sheet.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2017, 01:42:38 PM »