November 24, 2017, 03:17:30 PM

Author Topic: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]  (Read 81573 times)

Ian_of_glos

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2017, 01:16:40 PM »
Why do you guys always try to convince each other? That's a completely futile excercise...
This is the first sensible comment I have seen in the whole debate. Surely we should be grateful that we still have a choice rather than trying to persuade everyone to adopt exactly the same type of camera.

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2017, 01:16:40 PM »

ricky_005

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #166 on: May 19, 2017, 01:19:25 PM »

What should an individual photographer buy?  The available item that best meets their needs.

What should a company make and sell?  The items that are likely to be profitable.


Do not confuse the two: while there is some overlap, they are not the same question.

I feel like this is 95% of the issue people have on this forum. It's perfectly fine to be mad at Canon for not making what you want, but refusing to believe data that doesn't support your personal view is dumb. The fact is Canon dominates the market, and is gaining market share. Market giants stay giant by focusing on what is good for business and innovating/shifting either a) to grab/create a new market or b) respond to a new threat to your market share. Canon is doing both, but like all giants it is slow to move. When it does move, though, history shows it makes a massive impact.

If there was only one Camera company "Canon" we would all still be shooting 35mm film rolls.

Maximilian

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #167 on: May 19, 2017, 01:35:30 PM »
Ahhh, did you just tell me to "go back to learn optical formulas" then proceeded to use the comma & decimal interchangeably?

Oh no! I was joking about that! Hence the "Ha!"! My bad! Maybe I should put a smiley face :) instead. I know that in Europe you use the decimal/comma differently with Euros!
Okay! As I said before it seems that there was some missunderstanding on both sides. So let's just settle this, okay?

Quote
Take a look at DxOMark scores for transmission (T-Stop for actual transmission as opposed to F-Stop). I noticed that with Sony FF lenses, the transmission seem higher (closer to F-Stop) than SLR counterpart (Disclaimer: this is unscientific, and I could be wrong, but it's interesting)
Honestly I don't care a &%$"! on anything DxO measueres and tries to tell us anymore.
As their scores and conclusions are definetly far from beeing real scientific and objective I don't care a  &%$"! on their measurements either because I don't know if I could trust them in any way.
But please don't let us open this new topic again. Just search for some DxOMark score threads in this forum.
I think they say it all.
sometimes you have to close your eyes to see properly.

douglaurent

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #168 on: May 19, 2017, 02:17:30 PM »
Owning all current 8 Canon and Nikon Tilt Shift lenses, I can reassure you that they all work great on the Sony A7R2 - AND do work even better on the Sony body as they are stabilized.
[/quote]

I think you missed his point.  You stated that Canon had no advantage over SONY regarding landscape photography.  Clearly they have a very large advantage over SONY in landscape photography; tilt-shift lenses.
[/quote]

We are talking about the status of mirrorless cameras here, it doesn't matter if a lens is made by Sony, Canon, Sigma, Tamron or another brand.  It only counts what you can do with the combination of camera and lens.  And the fact is:  There are 8 great Tilt shift options you can use on a Sony, plus stabilization.  There are only 4 options each for Canon and Nikon, all without stabilization, focus peaking etc etc.  Sony is the clear #1 tilt shift camera brand right now.

douglaurent

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #169 on: May 19, 2017, 02:20:24 PM »
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere.  Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.

How exactly is that more meaningful than actual sales data?

How is sales data more meaningful than being a photographer and filmmaker working on a project with tools that are artificially limited?

Why do you work with those tools if they are limited?  Isn't part of being a professional photographer using the tools that you need?  Why are you using Canon products if they limit you?  His point was that the MAJORITY of consumers do NOT find them limiting, demonstrated by market share and sales.  Who cares what YOU want?

And who cares what you write?  Canon cameras can still be used in some limited scenarios with the same convenience as Sony cameras, and sometimes they are the better choice than Sony cameras.  It doesnt change the fact that the lack of 20+ helpful features is missing in Canon cameras.  For me and all Canon users out there who are wasting time because of that.

douglaurent

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #170 on: May 19, 2017, 02:21:40 PM »

They waste some years with inconvenient workflows and missing features, because Canon plays it slow.

...

Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.

...

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.


Aside from your own personal observations, what evidence do you have that these are true assertions?

The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.

Hflm

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #171 on: May 19, 2017, 02:25:19 PM »

They waste some years with inconvenient workflows and missing features, because Canon plays it slow.

...

Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.

...

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.


Aside from your own personal observations, what evidence do you have that these are true assertions?

The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.
I use Canon AND Sony A7rii professionally and no, I don't find the 5div is strongly compromised and missing 20+ features. I find it very capable and didn't feel limited using it at weddings. Instead I feel limited _more_ by the Sony A7rii. The 5div is an excellent camera, underestimated by many in my opinion (I shot Nikon D810 and D759 before, as well as tried Fuji and Olympus, so I think to have a very good overview).

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #171 on: May 19, 2017, 02:25:19 PM »

douglaurent

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #172 on: May 19, 2017, 02:35:39 PM »
Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.  It doesn't need any apocalyptic predictions for that - and as Canon will catch up at some point, this problem might not exist anymore in the years 2020/2021/2022 to eternity.

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.

While it's technically true that Canon is losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, it's also true that Sony and Panasonic are losing customers to Canon.  Given that Canon has been gaining ILC market share while Sony has lost it, your implication that Canon is losing net customers as 'fact' is at odds with reality.  But we've already established that you prefer to believe your opinion over documented fact...I believe you earlier recommended that someone seek medical attention...a psychiatrist is the appropriate medical professional to address the problems of those who cannot accept reality. 


Quote
Apparently you can't seem to accept the objective reality that Canon is the most popular global brand for dSLRs.  How sad.
In what way is the popularity of Canon relevant regarding the proven facts that their top products are behind in at least 20 important features?  Is this a forum about technical features, or the forum of the Wall Street Journal or brand values?

It is relevant because in spite of your contention that Canon is 'behind in at least 20 features' that you personally find important, Canon's popularity and nearly 50% and growing ILC market share indicate that the majority of consumers don't find those 20 features particularly important, or don't think that Canon is behind in the areas that matter to them. 

Obviously, you're welcome to have and share your opinion. Just don't go thinking that your opinion is universally shared…the actual facts clearly show that your opinion is irrelevant in the context of the ILC market.


Any average customer - and those millions of people who bought cheap DSLRs - appreciates what an EVF can do if you show it to them (a viewfinder that shows the right exposure and focus helps, lets you see video and review shots etc etc).  The reason why most of these people DON'T buy any new DSLR's or add lenses is, that the workflow completely sucks, and they are not supported in improving their skills.

So now you're speaking for millions of customers, and claiming to have knowledge of what drives their purchasing decisions? Talk about delusional…  Millions of people don't buy new cameras and lenses because 'the workflow completely sucks'?  Completely asinine.  It's far more likely that in most cases, the camera and lens(es) they have are meeting their needs perfectly well.

Maybe it's better when we continue to talk in 5-10 years - and when you personally use a new Canon camera that by then will all have these common ground features.  If asked if you would go back to a 5D4, you will for sure not want to do that - because you also don't want to miss the many new features that Canon competitors already do offer today.

The main question here is:  why are people who don't think that anything from extremely steady sensor stabilization to seeing the actual exposure in a viewfinder and many other obvious and basic improvements do even spend time in a forum that is all about new product developments, when in fact they are not interested in any of that?  Or what are the great features YOU want to see from Canon?  Please send us your wish list.

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #173 on: May 19, 2017, 03:00:08 PM »

If there was only one Camera company "Canon" we would all still be shooting 35mm film rolls.

Stupid comment - noone is suggesting Canon should be the only camera manufacturer

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #174 on: May 19, 2017, 03:02:38 PM »


The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.

What - you mean all competitors offer all of those features?
If they don't then it means those competitors are, in turn, doing something wrong.

By the way, do you still think the 1Dx is the better camera than Sony, like in the quote I posted?

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #175 on: May 19, 2017, 03:04:11 PM »
I´ve seen the new Sony on an advertisement show this week. Not helding in my hands, but shown to us by an sony representative. Impressing, how fast this body is, and how accurate focussing works. And it is really silent.
Yes, I know, the mounted lenses are not for wildlife, but for wedding photographers. But it wouled be an option for BIF mounted on Canon lenses.


You mean like the frame rate drops to 7 fps when you mount a Canon lens and the AF is compromised?
Nope - give me a Canon body on a Canon lens for that one....

privatebydesign

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #176 on: May 19, 2017, 03:08:24 PM »
....because you also don't want to miss the many new features that Canon competitors already do offer today.

I just bought a 1DX MkII, what features have I missed out on that will make an actual real world difference to my shooting?

The D5 is not 'better' anywhere and the A9 doesn't have the lens support I need today. When I want live view I use 'Live View', if the light is bad I can use an eyepiece on that larger screen with more resolution. I already have histogram's, blinkies and a host of 'must have' features, and, if early reports hold up to greater scrutiny, it appears of the high speed 'action' cameras the 1DX MkII is the outright leader in IQ.

Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Don Haines

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #177 on: May 19, 2017, 03:08:59 PM »
Personally, I see nothing wrong with saying that Canon has the best selling DSLRs and that overall their system is the best (and that includes things like lenses, accessories, service, and ergonomics), but at the same time saying that there are places where they can (or should) improve.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

When they introduce a mirrorless model, we can expect to see things like absolute silly burst mode speeds (at least 60FPS, my P/S does 100!, and apparently the 1DX2 can do 60 in live-view), and a combination of IBIS and lens based IS..... like Olympus is using.... They have 6 to 6.5 stops of IS and when trying one out at the local shop I did a hand-held 2 second exposure that came out sharp! I WANT THAT!!!!! If the 7D3 or 6D2 had that in live view I would break my rule about skipping models and jump on that one like a fat boy on a wedding cake!

« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 03:14:08 PM by Don Haines »
The best camera is the one in your hands

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #177 on: May 19, 2017, 03:08:59 PM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #178 on: May 19, 2017, 03:10:50 PM »

They waste some years with inconvenient workflows and missing features, because Canon plays it slow.

...

Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.

...

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.


Aside from your own personal observations, what evidence do you have that these are true assertions?

The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.

actually for most photographers, they don't care about your little 20+ whiny points, because they still purchase canon cameras, and enjoy using them.

perhaps they actually know something you don't.

why don't you just go - you're nothing but a troll here.

and I really doubt you have all these cameras, and as you say - use them every day.  frankly I doubt you have anything other than a freaking Fischer price  camera that you play with in your mom's basement.

privatebydesign

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #179 on: May 19, 2017, 03:22:35 PM »
Personally, I see nothing wrong with saying that Canon has the best selling DSLRs and that overall their system is the best (and that includes things like lenses, accessories, service, and ergonomics), but at the same time saying that there are places where they can (or should) improve.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

When they introduce a mirrorless model, we can expect to see things like absolute silly burst mode speeds (at least 60FPS, my P/S does 100!, and apparently the 1DX2 can do 60 in live-view), and a combination of IBIS and lens based IS..... like Olympus is using.... They have 6 to 6.5 stops of IS and when trying one out at the local shop I did a hand-held 2 second exposure that came out sharp! I WANT THAT!!!!! If the 7D3 or 6D2 had that in live view I would break my rule about skipping models and jump on that one like a fat boy on a wedding cake!

Agree, 100%

If you can make do with jpegs and lower resolution the 1DX MkII will already do 120 fps.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]
« Reply #179 on: May 19, 2017, 03:22:35 PM »