December 15, 2017, 03:05:18 PM

Author Topic: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications  (Read 11781 times)

rrcphoto

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2017, 08:29:01 PM »
$5800  for a 70-200.

Lol. See this is how products are priced in a free market system. Not criticizing it - just explaining it. The price of a product is what customers are willing to pay for it, or rather what the seller thinks they can get away with. In the case of film makers, especially serious film makers, Canon assumes their budget will be bigger than the average still photo hobbyist/ enthusiast. So Canon adds a few thousand to the cost of a regular 70-200 while adding some fluff. And voila ! You have a 70-200 for the "cinema EOS" system.

adding some fluff?

are you serious?

a cini zoom is parfocal, no zoom breathing, etc.

something your ordinary zoom is not, and is certainly not "fluff" to do it right.

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2017, 08:29:01 PM »

Bernard

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2017, 08:39:00 AM »
they ALWAYS ask "Do you have access to a A7s/r II or FS5/7?".

That's likely to be a workflow issue. They have their system set-up for specific cameras, and anything else will cost them more in terms of post-production time. They probably would have said the same thing if you had an Alexa.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 05:00:06 PM by Bernard »

Policar

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2017, 12:51:25 AM »
they ALWAYS ask "Do you have access to a A7s/r II or FS5/7?".

That's likely to be a workflow issue. They have their system set-up for specific cameras, and anything else will cost them more in terms of post-production time. They probably would have said the same thing if you had an Alexa.

Not really the case. I own a C100 and the two times I tried to rent it out for corporate clients one far preferred the AF100 for its timecode sync and the other was interested in renting an HVX200 instead. Very very high end clients, too, top of the line.

On the other hand, the Alexa is the camera I see used most often (on the lower end stuff I work on now). I'd say 90% of the projects I work on are Alexa-originated now.

Market perception matters a lot as does meeting certain broadcast specs.

That said, this is targeted mostly at mid range wedding videographers and should be excellent for that market. And with the promised codec upgrade it should be good enough for anyone!

tgberland

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2017, 02:59:34 PM »
I find it insane to release a pro camera at this price level in 2017 with 4:2:0 8bit 35Mbit/s @ 1080p. Someone at R&D Canon should get fired - epic failure.

The worst part is that this camera's hardware actually is capable of recording 4:2:2 10bit 50Mbit/s @ 1080p. So only a management decision to shield C300 mk2 sales. Which of course is too bad since this is one of the potentially best cameras around. RAW in 10 and 12bit is all good, but RAW is not a very user friendly format for every day filming. They can easily make this right via firmware update, but they won't. the XF-AVC codec scheduled in February 2018 is according to rumors 8bit only. So yes, we will get better bitrate, but still 4:2:0 8bit. I want 10bit in XF-AVC for both 1080p and UHD/4K.

Also a big no regarding their lacking support for RAW via SDI. Actually both SDI is restricted to 10bit in 1080p and 8bit in 2160p.

I actually cancelled my order on the C200 because of this.

WHY must always Canon destroy their potentially epic equipment which would leave the competition in the dust (Sony/Panasonic). Currently those are laughing all the way to the bank and can not believe how easy Canon is making it for them in 2017/2018.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 03:03:24 PM by tgberland »

HarryFilm

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2017, 03:40:51 PM »
"RAW in 10 and 12bit is all good, but RAW is not a very user friendly format for every day filming."

---

I do not see the big deal with filming in
Canon RAW-lite, You buy four CFast 2.0 cards
and rotate every 15 minutes out to your on-set
laptop which converts and outputs your footage
to multiple $150 Two-Terabyte Western Digital
USB 3.0 Portable hard drives using Apple ProRes 4:4:4
or to CineForm FilmScan 4:4:4 in less than 10 minutes
per card and voila you have INTRAFRAME Wavelet
encoded editable master footage which can be
colour-corrected, chroma or alpha keyed and
otherwise manipulated to your heart's delight.

From there, you do your editing on FCP,
Premiere, AVID or Davinci Resolve using
Apple ProRes or Cineform FilmScan and
only output your final production
viewing master or Youtube MPEG-4
or H.265 masters as the last step!

What is the big deal which following
a thought-out process like that?
Are you that strapped for budget and cash?

Seriously! We are looking at less than $3000
of gaming laptop power and four two-terabyte
portable hard drives?

If you're that strapped for cash maybe you need
to go back to working at Starbucks, save some
production funds and THEN film your script.

YES I know I'm on a high horse with my 25 years
of experience, four Canon 1Dc's, a C300 2 5D's
multiple drones and other cinegear whatnot,
BUT Cinema Production should be treated like
a WAR! It's a FIGHT to provide Logistics
(i.e. transport and sets), Arms (aka camera and
production gear), Soldiers (i.e. Cast and Crew)
and C4SIR (Directors and Producers)

You don't goto war unless you've PREPARED
and HAVE all your personnel and systems at
full readiness SO WHY the heck are YOU
doing ANY production without sufficient
resources to execute and finish the task
WELL in an actual Battlespace
(i.e. production set) arena?

Prior Planning and Preparation
Prevents P*** Poor Performance
(U.S. Marine Corps motto)

Warfighters Must Prepare before going to war
and since a Cinema Production IS LIKE A WAR,
you need to TRAIN, PREPARE, EQUIP and FUND
properly your production BEFORE you even shoot
the first second of footage!

Doing ANY LESS is cause for ending up in a
total carnage (financially!) with utter defeat
inflicted by enemies both known and unknown!

Making Movies IS FIGHTING A WAR!
It's a War Against Enemies called
Time, Money, Talent and Technology!

DO NOT GO INTO BATTLE unless you
are prepared to FIGHT HARD with fully
trained and prepared personnel and gear!

Save your pennies first! Harden yourself
for cinema battle and THEN you can
fight the good war for Sundance or
Oscar recognition!

===

So in the case of the Canon C200, this is a great
camera but you NEED TO BE AWARE OF its limitations.
For me personally, I could EASILY use the advantage
of my experience of shooting in Raw(lite) and then
converting to a GOOD intraframe codec (ProRes444 or
Cineform FilmScan) while still onset cycling CFast cards
every 15 to 20 minutes to a laptop. The key is buying
enough USB3 or Thunderbolt portable hard drives so
that you can store all your Raw-to-INTRAFRAME-encoded
video on a daily basis for your entire production run.

For less than $3000 you can do all the above tasks!
So SAVE and spend the money to do that and put the
extra effort into your script, DECENT lenses and
a good editor!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 04:51:14 PM by HarryFilm »

tgberland

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2017, 07:07:04 PM »
I'm not part of a big production team; then I would use C700 or Red. I'm doing a lot of press-related work; and use the C100 mk2 (or Panasonic DVX200). The problem for me with 35Mbit/s 4:2:0 8bit in 1080p is that more and more assignments are not available (specially for TV-related work). They require minimum 50Mbit 4:2:2 10bit in 1080p - some also prefer 4K, but that is not a real problem for news/press related assignments.

With c100 mk2; clog is nice - and it takes me 10 seconds to apply a layer in adobe premiere with LUT. This also gives me the possibility to handle shadows, highlights and colors in a much better way. Problem with 8bit 4:2:0 is that the adjustments must be very restricted to avoid banding and other issues.

Usually I'm not in control of environment; and just need to document what happens. You can not ask the European royal families to wait because you need to add some lights (or redo everything). Often you work in hard sunlight as well. In these scenarios 10bit 4:2:2 would be really nice. In addition the AF on C100mk2 is very restricted (square on center of screen) when you don't use STM lenses. These focus limitations are gone on the C200. I'm also considering the C300 mk2; but max 30 FPS in UHD; and heavier weight of the camera makes this a less desired option (I often need to carry my equipment the entire day).

So please keep in mind that we are not all working with a massive team and have control of the environment. I do most "run-and-gun-shooting" related to news/royalty/celebrities. We are working on a strict deadline and the material often must be out ASAP.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 07:17:00 PM by tgberland »

leGreve

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2017, 11:49:06 PM »
And this is how Panasonic just killed off the C200 before it got started....

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/06/03/panasonic-au-eva1/

Anyone want 4k, UHD, (60fps) HD and 720p (240fps) in a 10bit 4:2:2 to SD cards?

And ofcourse colors very similar to the Varicam...

Swingable IR filter

Native EF mount

Var ND filter

Dual ISO

FUTURE UPDATE: 5.7K Raw out to recorder....


Thank you C200, was nice knowing you.

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2017, 11:49:06 PM »

Bernard

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  • Posts: 126
Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2017, 07:24:39 AM »
And this is how Panasonic just killed off the C200 before it got started....

LG,

It's great to have additional options, especially with native EF mount. I certainly prefer a native mount to a third-party adapter like Metabones (and others) that only works some times with some lenses.

I find that predictions that one manufacturer's gear will "kill off" another manufacturer's gear are always wrong. It's the drunken boasting of sports fans on the night before the big game.

The C200 providing 4K RAW to C-Fast cards is a huge deal for scripted and long-form work. The cost of a few C-Fast cards is nothing in the greater scheme.
Canon's video AF is also years ahead of the competition. As far as I am concerned, it's the only brand that's good enough to use AF in a set shot (rather than news/doc).
We all know that Canon provides distinctive colours that many people find pleasing. Hopefully that won't change with the C200.

The new Varicam will come into its own in other ways. I don't see SD cards as a significant savings, but some shoestring productions might.
As with other Varicams, it will offer a good selection of slo-motion frame rates. That's a huge benefit in some cases, and of zero interest in others.

I can see myself using one or the other depending on the job requirements. Claiming that one is bad while the other is good is just pointless.

Additionally, the new Panasonic won't be available until the fall. That's a long way off, and future cameras always sound enticing until you try them.

djkraq

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2017, 03:38:57 AM »
I will take Canon DPAF over just about anything.  I use too many gimbals/Ronins/Stabalizers because I hate using tripods in my style of shooting. 

syder

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2017, 05:54:02 AM »
And this is how Panasonic just killed off the C200 before it got started....

LG,

It's great to have additional options, especially with native EF mount. I certainly prefer a native mount to a third-party adapter like Metabones (and others) that only works some times with some lenses.

I find that predictions that one manufacturer's gear will "kill off" another manufacturer's gear are always wrong. It's the drunken boasting of sports fans on the night before the big game.

The C200 providing 4K RAW to C-Fast cards is a huge deal for scripted and long-form work. The cost of a few C-Fast cards is nothing in the greater scheme.
Canon's video AF is also years ahead of the competition. As far as I am concerned, it's the only brand that's good enough to use AF in a set shot (rather than news/doc).
We all know that Canon provides distinctive colours that many people find pleasing. Hopefully that won't change with the C200.

The new Varicam will come into its own in other ways. I don't see SD cards as a significant savings, but some shoestring productions might.
As with other Varicams, it will offer a good selection of slo-motion frame rates. That's a huge benefit in some cases, and of zero interest in others.

I can see myself using one or the other depending on the job requirements. Claiming that one is bad while the other is good is just pointless.

Additionally, the new Panasonic won't be available until the fall. That's a long way off, and future cameras always sound enticing until you try them.

The C200 has internal RAW, DPAF with touchscreen control, better ND (10 stops rather than  6) and better colour science

The new Panasonic has a better non RAW codec (10 bit), in body IS, better slomo (240 fps rather than 180 fps) and dual native ISO (I don't know how much of an advantage this will be given that allegedly the C200 is usable up to iso32000)

People will make decisions based on which of those lists is more important to them. They'll both be great cameras - 180fps hd and the choice of internal RAW, xfavc and mp4 is hardly like the c100s 1080p30/i60 at 24mbps, and i say that as some one still quit happily using a c100mki with an external recorder - If the xfavc update does 50mbps 4:2:2 I can see the c200 picking more news/tv work. As it is, the DPAF is a big plus for drone/gimbal work and for wedding and documentary outfits

Mr. Milo

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2017, 11:59:57 AM »
"RAW in 10 and 12bit is all good, but RAW is not a very user friendly format for every day filming."

---

I do not see the big deal with filming in
Canon RAW-lite, You buy four CFast 2.0 cards
and rotate every 15 minutes out to your on-set
laptop which converts and outputs your footage
to multiple $150 Two-Terabyte Western Digital
USB 3.0 Portable hard drives using Apple ProRes 4:4:4
or to CineForm FilmScan 4:4:4 in less than 10 minutes
per card and voila you have INTRAFRAME Wavelet
encoded editable master footage which can be
colour-corrected, chroma or alpha keyed and
otherwise manipulated to your heart's delight.

From there, you do your editing on FCP,
Premiere, AVID or Davinci Resolve using
Apple ProRes or Cineform FilmScan and
only output your final production
viewing master or Youtube MPEG-4
or H.265 masters as the last step!

What is the big deal which following
a thought-out process like that?
Are you that strapped for budget and cash?

Seriously! We are looking at less than $3000
of gaming laptop power and four two-terabyte
portable hard drives?

If you're that strapped for cash maybe you need
to go back to working at Starbucks, save some
production funds and THEN film your script.

YES I know I'm on a high horse with my 25 years
of experience, four Canon 1Dc's, a C300 2 5D's
multiple drones and other cinegear whatnot,
BUT Cinema Production should be treated like
a WAR! It's a FIGHT to provide Logistics
(i.e. transport and sets), Arms (aka camera and
production gear), Soldiers (i.e. Cast and Crew)
and C4SIR (Directors and Producers)

You don't goto war unless you've PREPARED
and HAVE all your personnel and systems at
full readiness SO WHY the heck are YOU
doing ANY production without sufficient
resources to execute and finish the task
WELL in an actual Battlespace
(i.e. production set) arena?

Prior Planning and Preparation
Prevents P*** Poor Performance
(U.S. Marine Corps motto)

Warfighters Must Prepare before going to war
and since a Cinema Production IS LIKE A WAR,
you need to TRAIN, PREPARE, EQUIP and FUND
properly your production BEFORE you even shoot
the first second of footage!

Doing ANY LESS is cause for ending up in a
total carnage (financially!) with utter defeat
inflicted by enemies both known and unknown!

Making Movies IS FIGHTING A WAR!
It's a War Against Enemies called
Time, Money, Talent and Technology!

DO NOT GO INTO BATTLE unless you
are prepared to FIGHT HARD with fully
trained and prepared personnel and gear!

Save your pennies first! Harden yourself
for cinema battle and THEN you can
fight the good war for Sundance or
Oscar recognition!

===

So in the case of the Canon C200, this is a great
camera but you NEED TO BE AWARE OF its limitations.
For me personally, I could EASILY use the advantage
of my experience of shooting in Raw(lite) and then
converting to a GOOD intraframe codec (ProRes444 or
Cineform FilmScan) while still onset cycling CFast cards
every 15 to 20 minutes to a laptop. The key is buying
enough USB3 or Thunderbolt portable hard drives so
that you can store all your Raw-to-INTRAFRAME-encoded
video on a daily basis for your entire production run.

For less than $3000 you can do all the above tasks!
So SAVE and spend the money to do that and put the
extra effort into your script, DECENT lenses and
a good editor!

97 percent correct except for $3000 price. It's a lot higher than that. More like $10K. The cost of the C200 fully pimped out is $8K.

Also, to other filmmakers, learn how to edit videos yourself. I wouldn't let another editor do first cut.

shane.haumpton

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 02:20:16 AM »
Just want to share with you a link to Adorama's pre-order unit with 20% off.

I guess this is something worth looking into.

I saw B&H's price and it's still in the 7,5k benchmark.

Hope this helps to those who are interested in buying one - https://www.adorama.com/cac200ef.html

privatebydesign

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2017, 02:49:03 AM »
Just want to share with you a link to Adorama's pre-order unit with 20% off.

I guess this is something worth looking into.

I saw B&H's price and it's still in the 7,5k benchmark.

Hope this helps to those who are interested in buying one - https://www.adorama.com/cac200ef.html
B&H and Adorama are both advertising pre-orders for $7,499, where is this 20% you speak of?
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: Full Canon Cinema EOS C200 Specifications
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2017, 02:49:03 AM »