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Author Topic: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!  (Read 7039 times)

stilscream

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come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« on: February 08, 2012, 03:53:55 PM »
For $1-3,000 and I think prosumer and wildlife enthusiasts would be stoked to finally get the reach from a quality brand, without getting divorced for buying it. Even if it was f8ish, had IS,  and a USM...sell in droves, no?
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come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« on: February 08, 2012, 03:53:55 PM »

Gothmoth

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 04:04:08 PM »
For $1-3,000 and I think prosumer and wildlife enthusiasts would be stoked to finally get the reach from a quality brand, without getting divorced for buying it. Even if it was f8ish, had IS,  and a USM...sell in droves, no?

buy a T2 adapter and you get a 500 or 800mm for 200$... LOL.

or buy a 300mm f4 IS + 2x TC.... all you want (f8, IS, USM) for ~1600 euro.

what YOU want is a fantasy product that is as good a BRAND product but costs next to nothing.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 04:10:41 PM by Gothmoth »

neuroanatomist

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 04:04:20 PM »
Even if it was f8ish, had IS,  and a USM...sell in droves, no?

No, because f/8 lenses will not autofocus on most Canon bodies.  As for an 'affordable' 600mm f/5.6 lens, that means an iris diaphragm of 107mm, so it's much like a 300/2.8 lens.  The only way to make a truly affordable long lens like that is a mirror design, and that has numerous IQ and performance issues. 

Given the recent price trends, it seems apparent that Canon is moving in the other direction, the complete opposite of affordability.   :(
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Caps18

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 04:29:19 PM »
f/8 does focus in live view, it is just slow.  And you will need a tripod.

Look on Amazon.  There are some non-Canon brands that make long lenses.  I'm not sure if they are really good or not.  I was thinking about getting one that to take pictures of the Moon and planets.  However, getting a telescope with an adapter would be better at some point.
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Dianoda

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 04:42:57 PM »
Well, we'd need at least f/5.6 for AF to function.  And I'm all for a 600mm f/5.6L IS, but the lens would need to be as big as the 300 f/2.8 II (and probably cost as much), because unfortunately physics dictates front element size.  So it'd still be a pretty hefty lens.

How about this for an interesting idea: an EF-S super tele?  Think about it, an EF-S 500mm f/4 could be close in size to the EF 400L f/5.6.  If my math is right, a designed for APS-C 500mm f/4 would need a front element of approx. 77-78mm, so with a fudge factor to limit edge distortion plus lens casing, etc., a final lens diameter of 90mm is probably pretty reasonable.  So you'd get crazy, crazy reach (800mm eff) in a compact package.  Birders/wildlife guys would go nuts.

But the cost?  Who knows?  I don't think it'd be all that affordable if Canon had to grow fluorite crystals for it.  My guess is that it could probably be done for around $3K, and for less if no fluorite element.  Part of me wants to see Canon make it just for the hell of it.  It's a crazy fun idea.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 04:47:35 PM by Dianoda »
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Fleetie

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 05:14:17 PM »
Well, we'd need at least f/5.6 for AF to function.  And I'm all for a 600mm f/5.6L IS, but the lens would need to be as big as the 300 f/2.8 II (and probably cost as much), because unfortunately physics dictates front element size.  So it'd still be a pretty hefty lens.

How about this for an interesting idea: an EF-S super tele?  Think about it, an EF-S 500mm f/4 could be close in size to the EF 400L f/5.6.  If my math is right, a designed for APS-C 500mm f/4 would need a front element of approx. 77-78mm, so with a fudge factor to limit edge distortion plus lens casing, etc., a final lens diameter of 90mm is probably pretty reasonable.  So you'd get crazy, crazy reach (800mm eff) in a compact package.  Birders/wildlife guys would go nuts.

But your math isn't right.

A 500mm f/4 lens is a 500mm f/4 lens, no matter what size sensor you put behind it. It still needs an entrance pupil of 500/4=125mm, regardless.

As Neuro has pointed out many times here, there is NO advantage to making lenses for EF-S when it comes to long telephoto lenses, for this very reason. There is nothing to be gained in terms of lens size or therefore, cost.
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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 05:14:17 PM »

Dianoda

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 05:24:46 PM »
But your math isn't right.

A 500mm f/4 lens is a 500mm f/4 lens, no matter what size sensor you put behind it. It still needs an entrance pupil of 500/4=125mm, regardless.

As Neuro has pointed out many times here, there is NO advantage to making lenses for EF-S when it comes to long telephoto lenses, for this very reason. There is nothing to be gained in terms of lens size or therefore, cost.

Ugh, you are right.  So the lens I describe is really more of a 312mm F/4.  Crap.  Let me serve as a warning for those of you who would try to function with not enough sleep and too much coffee.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 05:29:55 PM by Dianoda »
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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 05:34:02 PM »
I have long wondered the same too. Could there be a way to make more affordable super-teles. With AF and preferably IS. Let's take it a given we can't disobey the laws of physics when it comes to sizes. The front element has to be big to support at least f/5.6 for AF. What else can we do to make it cheaper, and preferably lighter?

Is ditching glass an option? What are modern plastics like? Can we get some of an adequate optical grade. Of course I'm not suggesting I want fluorite performance for a fraction of the cost. But what if it could be made an acceptable quality. No L lens, but "good enough" so that it isn't considered worthless junk. Even take a leaf out of the mirrorless system cheat sheet, and allow easier software correctable "flaws" in the design to make it easier. Lateral CA and distortion can be higher if it helps make the lens simpler and cheaper.

Also could more be made of whatever the trick is Sony used in their 500/8 with AF?

And finally, an example of cheap, high quality, fast optics at a long focal length: the Skywatcher Quattro F4 Imaging Newtonian. They do several models of this, in 200 and 250mm aperture, giving 800mm and 1000mm focal lengths respectively, both at f/4! If you go for the cheap steel body version, the 800mm f/4 is yours for around £400. I wouldn't want to hand hold it though.
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stilscream

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 05:45:06 PM »
Yeah, I wanted to double that 600mm with an extender, but damn, I paid $3,000 for my car and I am going to pay $12k for a lens or $150 for a POS lens and not much in between in the non-mirror 600mm or more. 

I have tried older tamron, but canon knows what they are doing. Color accuracy is great even on the cheapest lenses.

Are older non-IS versions worth the money?
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wickidwombat

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 06:24:27 PM »
Yeah, I wanted to double that 600mm with an extender, but damn, I paid $3,000 for my car and I am going to pay $12k for a lens or $150 for a POS lens and not much in between in the non-mirror 600mm or more. 

I have tried older tamron, but canon knows what they are doing. Color accuracy is great even on the cheapest lenses.

Are older non-IS versions worth the money?

I just got the FD600 f4.5 and the edmika adapter, total cost including shipping the lens from japan and the adpater from canada came in around $1800. manual focus only but damn it is sharp and my copy is in really mint condition not a scratch on the paint and the glass is crystal clear. only problem is my kenko 1.4TC wont fit on it because of the tab at the back :(
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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 06:46:05 PM »
I had a Tamron 200-500mm Zoom, they are available, and a fairly decent lens.  The big issue is that they are so long that they are extremely difficult to hold still, even on a medium duty tripod.  Its f/6.3, and difficult to get the shutter speed up, but the price is right.

Frankly, my 100-400mm L will run circles around it, but it cost $500 more.

Here is a image of my Petunias from close to MFD. Its been several years since I had it, and I did not save most of the images after I sold it.

Its one of the few good quality lenses for a low price.



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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 07:15:21 PM »
I have considered the likes of the Tamron 200-500 and Sigma 50-500 and similar in place of the 100-400L I still have as my benchmark. I've never been convinced the extra 100mm is good enough to be worth it.

One time I did dabble with a used copy of the original Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 (no IS) lens. It was old, with a 1987 date code, and it looked it with lots of cosmetic body damage. But that did bring the price down into the ball park of a new 100-400L so I got it to play with for a bit. An actual 600mm lens with AF has never been cheaper.

Here's a direct comparison I did against the 100-400L on a duck that made the local news!:


7D + 100-400L at 400mm at f/8


7D + EF 300mm f/2.8 + Sigma 2x for 600mm at f/8

Both above are 100% crops although I think the forum is shrinking them further. I think they were from camera jpeg so arguably you could process them harder if you use raw.

You could also try using it like a macro...


This is not a crop! Resize only. 7D 600mm f/8.

I didn't keep it in the end. It was too heavy I never wanted to carry it anywhere. Also I felt excessively restricted by the lack of zoom. I suppose if I were to look at this again, the Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 (with 2x on it), with or without OS, could be interesting, but I'm also holding out to see what the 200-400 extender is like, and at what price! Somehow I don't think it'll deliver the "affordable 600mm".
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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 07:15:21 PM »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 07:22:43 PM »
I had a used non-IS Canon 600mm f/4.  HEAVY, and with the big Wimberly head and heavy duty tripod, it was too much for me to carry around.

You merely have to see one to realize that its going to be exquisitely expensive to manufacture. 




jimmy156

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 07:40:23 PM »
I would love Canon to make a 500mm f/5.6 (or f/6.3 and use the same tricks sigma et al. do to make it autofocus) and price it somewhere remotely attainable for the enthusiast.

A 400mm 5.6 can be had for under £1000, so if it was around £2000 for a 500mm f5.6 would that be too much to ask?

This would be the lens I would save to buy.

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Re: come on, make an affordable 600mm or 800mm!!
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 07:40:23 PM »