June 23, 2018, 02:12:39 PM

Author Topic: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor  (Read 69263 times)

Luds34

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2017, 11:19:52 PM »
I suspect a few more small numbers of users would have drifted to ABC if Canon did not bring out the 5d4 and 80d when they did.  Or not improve the noise character of the 7D2

I'm not sure how to respond to this. On one hand I want to ask for your evidence that proves folks were leaving Canon before the release of these products, and thus they (5D4, 80D, 7D2) saved them. I also want to point out how Canon stuck their 18 MP APS-C sensor in every crop camera they made for like a 5 year period, yet folks kept buying them.

On the other hand, I want to argue that your whole point boils down to a very generic, general statement that could really be applied to any company, probably in any industry where tech advancements manner. Like this, "If company ABC didn't continue to release next generation products as technology allowed, customers may have moved on to a competitor."

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2017, 11:19:52 PM »

unfocused

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2017, 11:27:41 PM »
...The majority of buyers are not pros, they are Jon and Jean Public ... they want a camera and lens that comes with no hassles, fits without adapters, and shoots memories...

The majority of pros want a camera and lens that comes with no hassles, fits without adapters and shoots whatever the client needs shot.

Hardly any pros care about the small differences in dynamic range that so many people on this forum obsess over.

Aglet

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2017, 11:40:15 PM »
Or download the files and process them optimally and see how good or bad it actually is. No, why would we do that when we can spend so much time shouting at each other?

Anyway, I know half of you will pull this to pieces but....



1st shot. So here is a crop of the 100iso shot from the 6D MkII vs the D750 both lifted 5 stops, and it's link.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3416153698/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dynamic-range

2nd shot. I downloaded the 6D MkII file and processed it close to optimally and this is the result. I took five minutes to do this, given a few hours I could do better and work out profiles for each iso and lift amount that could be saved as presets in LR.

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

When you do you get very different results. When will people stop eating this sh!t up?

OK. So I have to ask?... did you download and optimally process the D750 file also?..
(I suspect you did not and from the look of the pushed sample, likely did not need to)

So the points I'm trying to make are:

- if you optimize the processing for Canon and an ABC body... does the gap in final IQ at least narrow enough to make it worth the effort?

- I don't even want to spend 5 seconds in post if I can avoid it and I do that by starting with a cleaner file

privatebydesign

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2017, 11:54:11 PM »
So the points I'm trying to make are:

- if you optimize the processing for Canon and an ABC body... does the gap in final IQ at least narrow enough to make it worth the effort?

- I don't even want to spend 5 seconds in post if I can avoid it and I do that by starting with a cleaner file

- Optimized the Nikon is better, but not by enough to worry me for the occasions I need to globally push files by a true 5 stops.

- If you learn your craft and don't stubbornly stay in M mode because you think that's what pro's do you don't need to spend any time in post. I have never had a camera in any auto mode come close to five stops under exposed. The example is entirely artificial but if I needed to save an image I had underexposed by five stops I'd look for a new job knowing the 6D MkII is better than me anyway.....
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Jopa

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2017, 12:02:33 AM »
Or download the files and process them optimally and see how good or bad it actually is. No, why would we do that when we can spend so much time shouting at each other?

Anyway, I know half of you will pull this to pieces but....



1st shot. So here is a crop of the 100iso shot from the 6D MkII vs the D750 both lifted 5 stops, and it's link.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3416153698/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dynamic-range

2nd shot. I downloaded the 6D MkII file and processed it close to optimally and this is the result. I took five minutes to do this, given a few hours I could do better and work out profiles for each iso and lift amount that could be saved as presets in LR.

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

When you do you get very different results. When will people stop eating this sh!t up?

Did you run any noise reduction?

9VIII

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2017, 12:27:35 AM »
Or download the files and process them optimally and see how good or bad it actually is. No, why would we do that when we can spend so much time shouting at each other?

Anyway, I know half of you will pull this to pieces but....



1st shot. So here is a crop of the 100iso shot from the 6D MkII vs the D750 both lifted 5 stops, and it's link.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3416153698/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dynamic-range

2nd shot. I downloaded the 6D MkII file and processed it close to optimally and this is the result. I took five minutes to do this, given a few hours I could do better and work out profiles for each iso and lift amount that could be saved as presets in LR.

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

When you do you get very different results. When will people stop eating this sh!t up?


I hate to say it, but your processing doesn't help, part of the bottle is still missing because it was so drowned in noise, the details have still been destroyed.

Yes, the noise pattern is gone and it's a smooth image, but you haven't necessarily saved the picture.

The original 6D is a better low light camera.
(Which is not to say that the 6D2 is "bad" or that thousands upon thousands of people wouldn't find it the best camera for their purposes, but in terms of sensor development I don't think there's going to be very much positivity from anyone.)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 12:31:19 AM by 9VIII »

Jopa

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2017, 12:38:18 AM »
The original 6D is a better low light camera.

I thought we're talking about DR, not low light performance?  The same image would look great if shot at ISO 3200 (5 stops above ISO 100).

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2017, 12:38:18 AM »

Aglet

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2017, 12:39:39 AM »
Or download the files and process them optimally and see how good or bad it actually is. No, why would we do that when we can spend so much time shouting at each other?

Anyway, I know half of you will pull this to pieces but....



1st shot. So here is a crop of the 100iso shot from the 6D MkII vs the D750 both lifted 5 stops, and it's link.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3416153698/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dynamic-range

2nd shot. I downloaded the 6D MkII file and processed it close to optimally and this is the result. I took five minutes to do this, given a few hours I could do better and work out profiles for each iso and lift amount that could be saved as presets in LR.

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

When you do you get very different results. When will people stop eating this sh!t up?


I hate to say it, but your processing doesn't help, part of the bottle is still missing because it was so drowned in noise, the details have still been destroyed.

Yes, the noise pattern is gone and it's a smooth image, but you haven't necessarily saved the picture.

The original 6D is a better low light camera.
(Which is not to say that the 6D2 is "bad" or that thousands upon thousands of people wouldn't find it the best camera for their purposes, but in terms of sensor development I don't think there's going to be very much positivity from anyone.)

I both agree and disagree...
The processing methods he used will provide a clean looking image that many people will still like.
But having seen the other camera's rendering...  I'd take the Nikon version as the faint reflection is still there and there's no disembottled cap floating there. :)

privatebydesign

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2017, 12:43:46 AM »
Or download the files and process them optimally and see how good or bad it actually is. No, why would we do that when we can spend so much time shouting at each other?

Anyway, I know half of you will pull this to pieces but....



1st shot. So here is a crop of the 100iso shot from the 6D MkII vs the D750 both lifted 5 stops, and it's link.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3416153698/canon-eos-6d-mark-ii-dynamic-range

2nd shot. I downloaded the 6D MkII file and processed it close to optimally and this is the result. I took five minutes to do this, given a few hours I could do better and work out profiles for each iso and lift amount that could be saved as presets in LR.

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

When you do you get very different results. When will people stop eating this sh!t up?


I hate to say it, but your processing doesn't help, part of the bottle is still missing because it was so drowned in noise, the details have still been destroyed.

Yes, the noise pattern is gone and it's a smooth image, but you haven't necessarily saved the picture.

The original 6D is a better low light camera.
(Which is not to say that the 6D2 is "bad" or that thousands upon thousands of people wouldn't find it the best camera for their purposes, but in terms of sensor development I don't think there's going to be very much positivity from anyone.)

You can adjust it however you personally want. My point was, and it hasn't been contested yet, is that it is showing a completely different result to the DPReview crap. Yes I could take more time and make it marginally 'better', yes the Nikon is still better, but not by close to the amount DPReview are implying and certainly enough for me to use on any areas I needed to do a 5 stop lift.

I disagree on you saying all detail has been lost, the writing on the label is comparable.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

9VIII

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2017, 03:35:46 AM »

You can adjust it however you personally want. My point was, and it hasn't been contested yet, is that it is showing a completely different result to the DPReview crap. Yes I could take more time and make it marginally 'better', yes the Nikon is still better, but not by close to the amount DPReview are implying and certainly enough for me to use on any areas I needed to do a 5 stop lift.

I disagree on you saying all detail has been lost, the writing on the label is comparable.

You're correct that the writing on the left looks good, there certainly is still a usable exposure range even with such a noisy base image, but the shaded side of the gold foil on the other bottle is heavily deteriorated.

I still consider the wi-fi utilities worth more than an extra stop of DR, but Canon is going to have a hard time explaining this one.


The original 6D is a better low light camera.

I thought we're talking about DR, not low light performance?  The same image would look great if shot at ISO 3200 (5 stops above ISO 100).

A bit of both, I'm probably carrying ideas between threads. With the Nikon D5 a compromise was made in order to boost high ISO performance, and that has traditionally been the advantage to Canon sensors (in the D800 era the 6D was alwas held as the low light king),
logically we should expect Canon to actually make progress in low light performance if they're still taking the same approach. Thus far there is nothing to indicate that being the case though.

edoorn

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2017, 03:53:20 AM »
I'm as Canon fanboy as it can get, but I would not touch this sensor with a 10 ft pole for wedding and event work when you have the option to pick alternatives that are not at least 5 years behind. Did they just went cheap, picked an older production line to make as much profit as possible?

Pippan

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2017, 04:31:22 AM »
I'm as Canon fanboy as it can get, but I would not touch this sensor with a 10 ft pole for wedding and event work when you have the option to pick alternatives that are not at least 5 years behind. Did they just went cheap, picked an older production line to make as much profit as possible?
Perhaps if you're doing wedding and event work you should use a camera designed for it. AFAIK the 5D MkIV is just such camera.

SecureGSM

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2017, 04:42:41 AM »
Right! Would you still hesitate if the price was, say: 2 for $2,500.00  ? I wouldn't :)

I'm as Canon fanboy as it can get, but I would not touch this sensor with a 10 ft pole for wedding and event work when you have the option to pick alternatives that are not at least 5 years behind. Did they just went cheap, picked an older production line to make as much profit as possible?

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2017, 04:42:41 AM »

StudentOfLight

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2017, 04:48:26 AM »
So the points I'm trying to make are:

- if you optimize the processing for Canon and an ABC body... does the gap in final IQ at least narrow enough to make it worth the effort?

- I don't even want to spend 5 seconds in post if I can avoid it and I do that by starting with a cleaner file

- Optimized the Nikon is better, but not by enough to worry me for the occasions I need to globally push files by a true 5 stops.

- If you learn your craft and don't stubbornly stay in M mode because you think that's what pro's do you don't need to spend any time in post. I have never had a camera in any auto mode come close to five stops under exposed. The example is entirely artificial but if I needed to save an image I had underexposed by five stops I'd look for a new job knowing the 6D MkII is better than me anyway.....
With Canon's RGB Live View histogram I find it very easy to "pre-chimp" and adjust for my white point (and Kelvin Temp) when I change venues. This makes it relatively easy to get consistent in-camera results in full manual both in terms of exposure and color. #TapLV
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snoke

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2017, 05:50:37 AM »
You can adjust it however you personally want. My point was, and it hasn't been contested yet, is that it is showing a completely different result to the DPReview crap. Yes I could take more time and make it marginally 'better', yes the Nikon is still better, but not by close to the amount DPReview are implying and certainly enough for me to use on any areas I needed to do a 5 stop lift.

If DPR did post work like remove noise then the review become a review of their skill in post and of software to remove the noise and not (only) camera. ISO invariant test almost inappropriate but accept only because it isn't skilled. The review isn't what you can make image look like but how the camera works and what in its files. Post processing to remove noise destroys the detailed evidence of what the camera recorded.

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2017, 05:50:37 AM »