June 23, 2018, 04:27:20 PM

Author Topic: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor  (Read 69270 times)

Mikehit

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2017, 06:02:50 AM »
You can adjust it however you personally want. My point was, and it hasn't been contested yet, is that it is showing a completely different result to the DPReview crap. Yes I could take more time and make it marginally 'better', yes the Nikon is still better, but not by close to the amount DPReview are implying and certainly enough for me to use on any areas I needed to do a 5 stop lift.

If DPR did post work like remove noise then the review become a review of their skill in post and of software to remove the noise and not (only) camera. ISO invariant test almost inappropriate but accept only because it isn't skilled. The review isn't what you can make image look like but how the camera works and what in its files. Post processing to remove noise destroys the detailed evidence of what the camera recorded.

I can see your point, but no-one is ever looking at the data coming off the sensor, they are looking at a processed version of that data so yes, it is about how they make the image look. So how do you define what your standard process should be? One that suits (even unintentionally) Nikon? Or Sony? Or Canon?
What use is the information from DPR if the output on which they base their assessment of the camera bears little relationship to what you or I can produce? There isn't an easy answer to this which is why standardisation is a bitch and why standardised tests can be so polarising.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 06:10:33 AM by Mikehit »

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2017, 06:02:50 AM »

YuengLinger

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2017, 06:34:20 AM »
You can adjust it however you personally want. My point was, and it hasn't been contested yet, is that it is showing a completely different result to the DPReview crap. Yes I could take more time and make it marginally 'better', yes the Nikon is still better, but not by close to the amount DPReview are implying and certainly enough for me to use on any areas I needed to do a 5 stop lift.

If DPR did post work like remove noise then the review become a review of their skill in post and of software to remove the noise and not (only) camera. ISO invariant test almost inappropriate but accept only because it isn't skilled. The review isn't what you can make image look like but how the camera works and what in its files. Post processing to remove noise destroys the detailed evidence of what the camera recorded.

Agreed.  Showing what could be done to salvage the image was a pretty desperate attempt to apologize for Canon.

Canon's customers have every right to complain about subpar products.  Hearing over and over, reflexively, from self-appointed defenders of the faith, that, because Canon is the current market leader our concerns are irrelevant and futile doesn't make the criticism of disappointing products less valid.


Mikehit

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2017, 06:53:48 AM »
You can adjust it however you personally want. My point was, and it hasn't been contested yet, is that it is showing a completely different result to the DPReview crap. Yes I could take more time and make it marginally 'better', yes the Nikon is still better, but not by close to the amount DPReview are implying and certainly enough for me to use on any areas I needed to do a 5 stop lift.

If DPR did post work like remove noise then the review become a review of their skill in post and of software to remove the noise and not (only) camera. ISO invariant test almost inappropriate but accept only because it isn't skilled. The review isn't what you can make image look like but how the camera works and what in its files. Post processing to remove noise destroys the detailed evidence of what the camera recorded.

Agreed.  Showing what could be done to salvage the image was a pretty desperate attempt to apologize for Canon.

Canon's customers have every right to complain about subpar products.  Hearing over and over, reflexively, from self-appointed defenders of the faith, that, because Canon is the current market leader our concerns are irrelevant and futile doesn't make the criticism of disappointing products less valid.

I saw PBD comments not as an apologist but pointing out that after a 5-stop push the difference to other marques is far less than the basic DPR image would suggest. I have no problem people saying the sensor is disappointing but if they are going to reject the 6D2 as an option base that decision on what the sensor is actually capable of, not based on some non-optimal standardised process.

neuroanatomist

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2017, 07:07:09 AM »
Canon's customers have every right to complain about subpar products.  Hearing over and over, reflexively, from self-appointed defenders of the faith, that, because Canon is the current market leader our concerns are irrelevant and futile doesn't make the criticism of disappointing products less valid.

Complain all you want, that's perfectly valid.   But if you're complaining about a camera that is meeting Canon's sales expectations, then yes, your complaints are futile and irrelevant to Canon.  That's reality.  It's unfortunate that having reality explained upsets you, but really, that's your own problem. 
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Hector1970

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2017, 07:29:33 AM »
I'm not in the market for a 6DII as I have the 5D IV already.
I think a big chunk of the 6DII market is upgrade from APS-C group of photographers.

I think the camera has a number of good improvements over the original 6D.
The frame rate, focus points, and flippy screen are great improvements.

I think Canon made a mistake not using the 5D IV sensor in the 6D II.
Having a high dynamic range is very useful to a generalist shooter.
They will shoot in a lot of high contrast situations.
I'm sure the 6D II sensor is probably not that bad and most people wouldn't notice but its a factor once highlighted takes away from the camera if you were going to invest alot of your hard earned money on it.

If you are not over invested in Canon you may well consider a switch to Nikon / Sony.
Someone like me is highly entangled with Canon and have to hope each generation of the cameras keep improving to maximise the glass that I have (which still remains top class).

The 6DII will be interesting to watch over time as to whether it's a success or not. It will do well initially with Pre-orders from the initial announcement. If the reviews are poor in magazines I'm not sure it will do well in the long run. It's still basically a good camera but might not look so good against it's direct competitors.

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Mikehit

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2017, 07:56:49 AM »
Check this out:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/07/20/canon-6d-mark-ii-first-shots-production-level-lab-samples

Interesting.
The 6D2 has more texture in the cloth than both other cameras but seems to have a bit less detail and richness in the dark areas.  SO I can see why the 6D2 has been touted as the best possible sensor but it is not on all aspects of the performance.

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2017, 07:56:49 AM »

Luds34

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2017, 08:20:38 AM »
You can adjust it however you personally want. My point was, and it hasn't been contested yet, is that it is showing a completely different result to the DPReview crap. Yes I could take more time and make it marginally 'better', yes the Nikon is still better, but not by close to the amount DPReview are implying and certainly enough for me to use on any areas I needed to do a 5 stop lift.

If DPR did post work like remove noise then the review become a review of their skill in post and of software to remove the noise and not (only) camera. ISO invariant test almost inappropriate but accept only because it isn't skilled. The review isn't what you can make image look like but how the camera works and what in its files. Post processing to remove noise destroys the detailed evidence of what the camera recorded.

I can see your point, but no-one is ever looking at the data coming off the sensor, they are looking at a processed version of that data so yes, it is about how they make the image look. So how do you define what your standard process should be? One that suits (even unintentionally) Nikon? Or Sony? Or Canon?
What use is the information from DPR if the output on which they base their assessment of the camera bears little relationship to what you or I can produce? There isn't an easy answer to this which is why standardisation is a bitch and why standardised tests can be so polarising.

I agree, it's tough. And heaven forbid one company started cooking the RAWs a little bit and all of a sudden they start looking really good in some of these basic tests.

chrysoberyl

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2017, 08:35:04 AM »
Dynamic Range turns into Dynamic RAGE ;)

DR = dramatic ranting 8)

Ha ha ha ha.  Good one.

Canon really messed up - I just bought a 5DIV instead of a 6DII.

monkey44

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2017, 08:58:10 AM »
...The majority of buyers are not pros, they are Jon and Jean Public ... they want a camera and lens that comes with no hassles, fits without adapters, and shoots memories...

The majority of pros want a camera and lens that comes with no hassles, fits without adapters and shoots whatever the client needs shot.

Hardly any pros care about the small differences in dynamic range that so many people on this forum obsess over.

Yes, exactly my point taken to the next level.  Most of us shoot well enough in the field to pretty much print what we need with minimal post processing - and least that's true for my work.  And, most applications for our print in whatever media we need works quite well without tweaking it in areas most viewers will never notice.

I suspect very high end commercial work or gallery work might require a bit more, but in general public and in the majority of pro work, my experience tells me major post processing with all the little tweaks is more a personal perception of what an individual photographer wants to see in his/her work, than what might be required for the production image or print. 

Is extra tweaking necessary sometimes to pull the shadow detail, or some other hidden factor?  Sure, but in general, when it requires that much additional tweaking, I'll just go to a different image in the series.

Khalai

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2017, 09:08:34 AM »
Dynamic Range turns into Dynamic RAGE ;)

DR = dramatic ranting 8)

Ha ha ha ha.  Good one.

Canon really messed up - I just bought a 5DIV instead of a 6DII.

*cha-ching* from Canon's bank account ;)
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chrysoberyl

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2017, 09:41:31 AM »
DR = dramatic ranting 8)

Ha ha ha ha.  Good one.

Canon really messed up - I just bought a 5DIV instead of a 6DII.
[/quote]

*cha-ching* from Canon's bank account ;)
[/quote]

I really wanted the articulating screen, but when I saw the IQ bump the Sigma 135 Art gave my 6D and 80D, I decided 30 MP would be nice.  I was firmly on the fence until the DR discussion.  That was the slight nudge I needed to decide.

kphoto99

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2017, 09:47:45 AM »
Dynamic Range turns into Dynamic RAGE ;)

DR = dramatic ranting 8)

Ha ha ha ha.  Good one.

Canon really messed up - I just bought a 5DIV instead of a 6DII.

You just proved Canon right, they want you to buy 5DIV instead of 6DII

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2017, 09:47:45 AM »

YuengLinger

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2017, 10:13:12 AM »
Canon's customers have every right to complain about subpar products.  Hearing over and over, reflexively, from self-appointed defenders of the faith, that, because Canon is the current market leader our concerns are irrelevant and futile doesn't make the criticism of disappointing products less valid.

Complain all you want, that's perfectly valid.   But if you're complaining about a camera that is meeting Canon's sales expectations, then yes, your complaints are futile and irrelevant to Canon.  That's reality.  It's unfortunate that having reality explained upsets you, but really, that's your own problem.

"Upset" is not the right word.  Every time generally happy customers share a negative opinion about a feature or spec that compares poorly to the competition, we get exactly the same response from the same four or five CR members.  As if it is your mission to stop the negative talk, to declare that your seasoned, worldly perspective trumps all, and that criticism must stop.

"Bewildered" better applies to how I feel about obviously intelligent people reacting robotically to criticism, trying to end critical threads, or steer conversations back to only the joys and miracles of life under Canon.

neuroanatomist

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2017, 10:23:23 AM »
Canon's customers have every right to complain about subpar products.  Hearing over and over, reflexively, from self-appointed defenders of the faith, that, because Canon is the current market leader our concerns are irrelevant and futile doesn't make the criticism of disappointing products less valid.

Complain all you want, that's perfectly valid.   But if you're complaining about a camera that is meeting Canon's sales expectations, then yes, your complaints are futile and irrelevant to Canon.  That's reality.  It's unfortunate that having reality explained upsets you, but really, that's your own problem.

"Upset" is not the right word.  Every time generally happy customers share a negative opinion about a feature or spec that compares poorly to the competition, we get exactly the same response from the same four or five CR members.  As if it is your mission to stop the negative talk, to declare that your seasoned, worldly perspective trumps all, and that criticism must stop.

"Bewildered" better applies to how I feel about obviously intelligent people reacting robotically to criticism, trying to end critical threads, or steer conversations back to only the joys and miracles of life under Canon.

I think you're missing the point, still. 

Meanwhile, I'm bewildered by an obviously intelligent person viewing a demonstration of good post-processing skills as a, "...pretty desperate attempt to apologize for Canon."

Agreed.  Showing what could be done to salvage the image was a pretty desperate attempt to apologize for Canon.
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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2017, 10:23:23 AM »