June 17, 2018, 08:07:35 PM

Author Topic: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor  (Read 68865 times)

Antono Refa

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2017, 11:19:04 AM »
Canon really messed up - I just bought a 5DIV instead of a 6DII.

You just proved Canon right, they want you to buy 5DIV instead of 6DII

For profit companies want customers to buy products with higher profit margin? No!

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2017, 11:19:04 AM »

Orangutan

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2017, 11:32:20 AM »

BECAUSE ONE USES A FLOATING BLACK POINT AND ONE DOESN'T!


He may not know what that means.

snoke

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2017, 11:38:43 AM »
I can see your point, but no-one is ever looking at the data coming off the sensor, they are looking at a processed version of that data so yes, it is about how they make the image look.

Your "they" is Adobe, not DPR. DPR use ACR. The "out of camera" raw file look is by Adobe, independent company.

Look at graph:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Ideal%20FF/FX


Perfect ISO invariant sensor is "ideal" line. Ideal sensor would produce  same output with "ISO100,EV-1" as "ISO200,EV+0".

What this got to do with the price of fish? Everything and nothing.

Simplest way to think of it: when sensor graph match "ideal" line then sensor is perfect.

Difference between images of ISO100,EV-5" and "ISO3200,EV+0" because noise introduced inside the camera by the ADC/read circuit. This test show how good/bad ADC and circuit design in camera is.

Who cares about it? Photographer that want texture in shadow, not only black. To others, splitting hairs.

Of course picture by privatebydesign is too simple for noise - where is details? Just need black! Choose section have hair or fine detail/texture and see difference! Why nobody see this? Nobody here ever do much NR work????

privatebydesign

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2017, 11:44:22 AM »

BECAUSE ONE USES A FLOATING BLACK POINT AND ONE DOESN'T!


He may not know what that means.

He can Google it rather than chew me out as an "apologist" without knowing what he is talking about.  ;)

I am very generous with my time and skillset inside and outside the forum, I have sent multiple people from here prints, videos and countless messages to help each and every one of them. All I was trying to do was point out this is not a "comparison" and I get pissed on because he has decided I have sold my soul to Canon and every word out of my mouth is an apology for anything they do.

If people are interested in learning I will take a lot of time and trouble to help them if I can. If they come out of their corner swinging they can piss off. If they come out of their corner swinging and it turns out they don't know what they are talking about and stop mid punch to actually ask for help ("educate me") they can Google it, my horses lean-to needs the roof fixing and she will appreciate it.  ;D
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

CanonCams

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2017, 11:52:07 AM »
Big disappointment.

snoke

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2017, 11:53:40 AM »
BECAUSE ONE USES A FLOATING BLACK POINT AND ONE DOESN'T!

At least two posters, including me, have pointed that out so far in this very thread.

Floating black point let Canon hide problem with sensor design. DPR find way to show problem. For old Canon sensor design. Not new sensor design in 80D or 5D Mark IV.

Floating black point is not unknown. It is not mystery nobody know about before:

http://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/dcraw-float-c-code.html
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12280

Adobe know it. ACR can know it too.

Mikehit

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2017, 12:05:45 PM »
BECAUSE ONE USES A FLOATING BLACK POINT AND ONE DOESN'T!

At least two posters, including me, have pointed that out so far in this very thread.

Floating black point let Canon hide problem with sensor design. DPR find way to show problem. For old Canon sensor design. Not new sensor design in 80D or 5D Mark IV.

Floating black point is not unknown. It is not mystery nobody know about before:

http://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/dcraw-float-c-code.html
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12280

Adobe know it. ACR can know it too.

No. It is not hiding a problem it is different ways round the same problem.
DPR is not showing the problem in the sensor design, it is highlighting a problem in the way DPR does its testing. Nikon etc all all have fixed black point so you could validly argue that DRP is allowing for Nikon's fixed blackpoint in the way they have designed their standardised processing, but is not allowing for Canon's variable black point.

And if blackpoint is (as you surmise) well known, why have DPR and Adobe not allowed for it? That smacks of incompetence at DPR and Adobe, not incompetence at the way Canon have chosen to design their sensors.

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2017, 12:05:45 PM »

snoke

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2017, 12:22:34 PM »
And if blackpoint is (as you surmise) well known, why have DPR and Adobe not allowed for it?

How you know they don't? Because some Canon look noisy with +5? How ACR make good photo and good black without it? Read links I post. Knowledge about blackpoint isn't Canon secret.

Mikehit

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2017, 12:27:15 PM »
And if blackpoint is (as you surmise) well known, why have DPR and Adobe not allowed for it?

How you know they don't? Because some Canon look noisy with +5? How ACR make good photo and good black without it? Read links I post. Knowledge about blackpoint isn't Canon secret.


http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/canon.raw.processing1/
Quote
Part of the problems in digging out the dynamic range is due to the image editing programs. Photoshop, for example, clips data at zero. If the image editors would handle negative numbers I believe we could produce better images without fear of clipping the low end during processing.

And if they did , how come PBD can create a superior image by allowing for the black point?

YuengLinger

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2017, 12:28:50 PM »

BECAUSE ONE USES A FLOATING BLACK POINT AND ONE DOESN'T!


He may not know what that means.

He can Google it rather than chew me out as an "apologist" without knowing what he is talking about.  ;)

I am very generous with my time and skillset inside and outside the forum, I have sent multiple people from here prints, videos and countless messages to help each and every one of them. All I was trying to do was point out this is not a "comparison" and I get pissed on because he has decided I have sold my soul to Canon and every word out of my mouth is an apology for anything they do.

If people are interested in learning I will take a lot of time and trouble to help them if I can. If they come out of their corner swinging they can piss off. If they come out of their corner swinging and it turns out they don't know what they are talking about and stop mid punch to actually ask for help ("educate me") they can Google it, my horses lean-to needs the roof fixing and she will appreciate it.  ;D

So Canon now needs a special RAW editor?  Can't fairly assess their sensors' DR and other IQ aspects in currently popular editors such as ACR, LR, On1, etc, etc?

Oy vey. 

snoke

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2017, 12:34:15 PM »
And if they did , how come PBD can create a superior image by allowing for the black point?

Who know what PBD did? Only PBD. We Cannot. Did not post recipe!

Mikehit

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2017, 12:37:53 PM »
And if they did , how come PBD can create a superior image by allowing for the black point?

Who know what PBD did? Only PBD. We Cannot. Did not post recipe!

Yet no comment on the Clarkvision site? Hmmm...

scyrene

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2017, 12:40:47 PM »
I think Canon made a mistake not using the 5D IV sensor in the 6D II.

Not if that meant it was unprofitable. The assumption I think many people are making is that this has been done to cut costs - or to put it another way, to increase profits. We don't have the information to decide what putting the 5D4's sensor in would have made to that, but it's not unreasonable to assume it would cost more (if only because that camera costs more). If so, maybe they'd not make enough profit on the 6D2 to make it worth their while bothering to produce it, who knows. Just because it disappoints some people doesn't mean it's a bad business decision.

And for those feeling 'bewildered' by decisions like this, this is not a defence, it's an attempt to understand them so we are less bewildered :)

Having a high dynamic range is very useful to a generalist shooter.
They will shoot in a lot of high contrast situations.

This is quite an assertion, and requires some evidence imho. It could be that a generalist, being exposed to a wider range of conditions, learns how to get the best results out of their device because they are tested more (than, say, people who shoot mostly under controlled conditions, be that in a studio, using flash, or only at certain times of day or year).
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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2017, 12:40:47 PM »

Orangutan

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2017, 12:49:33 PM »
So Canon now needs a special RAW editor? 

Unbiased is not the same as 'special.'

YuengLinger

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2017, 01:00:15 PM »
So Canon now needs a special RAW editor? 

Unbiased is not the same as 'special.'

Unbiased = "Made by Canon for Canon."   ::)

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Re: PetaPixel poops on the 6D2 sensor
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2017, 01:00:15 PM »