December 11, 2017, 04:43:03 AM

Author Topic: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files  (Read 4472 times)

scottkinfw

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Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« on: July 20, 2017, 10:54:25 PM »
I saw a similar post but it didn't answer my question, and so I am hoping to find out a specific answer.

I am not a pro and do my own editing.  Currently I use Bay Roes and like them a lot for aluminum prints with high gloss finish.

I would like to take advantage of RAW during printing if possible.  Anybody have a company to recommend?

Please note that I do my own post and have no interest in having anyone else do that, just the printing part as above.

Thanks all.

Scott
Cameras: 1DXII,5D III, 5D II.  Lenses    24-70 2.8L II IS, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8.   Flashes: 600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT, 580 EX II.
Plus lots of stuff that just didn't work for me

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Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« on: July 20, 2017, 10:54:25 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 10:59:23 PM »
I saw a similar post but it didn't answer my question, and so I am hoping to find out a specific answer.

I am not a pro and do my own editing.  Currently I use Bay Roes and like them a lot for aluminum prints with high gloss finish.

I would like to take advantage of RAW during printing if possible.  Anybody have a company to recommend?

Please note that I do my own post and have no interest in having anyone else do that, just the printing part as above.

Thanks all.

Scott

There's no point. Few printers (machines) can handle 16bit files and those that do can't actually illustrate the bit depth in actual ink output.

I have printed greyscale ramps and test prints in various bit depths to my Canon Pro2000, that can print in 16 bit, and there isn't any discernible difference, big commercial printers (machines) have fewer inks and subsequent tonal possibilities.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Geaibleu16

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 11:25:00 PM »
When I wish to have large prints, or our calendars, I forward my data to Apple/Mac and they do a splendid job from 8x10 to 20x30. Needless to say we are equipped with 27" iMacs.

scottkinfw

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 12:29:09 AM »
I saw a similar post but it didn't answer my question, and so I am hoping to find out a specific answer.

I am not a pro and do my own editing.  Currently I use Bay Roes and like them a lot for aluminum prints with high gloss finish.

I would like to take advantage of RAW during printing if possible.  Anybody have a company to recommend?

Please note that I do my own post and have no interest in having anyone else do that, just the printing part as above.

Thanks all.

Scott

There's no point. Few printers (machines) can handle 16bit files and those that do can't actually illustrate the bit depth in actual ink output.

I have printed greyscale ramps and test prints in various bit depths to my Canon Pro2000, that can print in 16 bit, and there isn't any discernible difference, big commercial printers (machines) have fewer inks and subsequent tonal possibilities.

Thank you.

Dang.

sek
Cameras: 1DXII,5D III, 5D II.  Lenses    24-70 2.8L II IS, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8.   Flashes: 600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT, 580 EX II.
Plus lots of stuff that just didn't work for me

scottkinfw

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 12:29:44 AM »
I saw a similar post but it didn't answer my question, and so I am hoping to find out a specific answer.

I am not a pro and do my own editing.  Currently I use Bay Roes and like them a lot for aluminum prints with high gloss finish.

I would like to take advantage of RAW during printing if possible.  Anybody have a company to recommend?

Please note that I do my own post and have no interest in having anyone else do that, just the printing part as above.

Thanks all.

Scott

There's no point. Few printers (machines) can handle 16bit files and those that do can't actually illustrate the bit depth in actual ink output.

I have printed greyscale ramps and test prints in various bit depths to my Canon Pro2000, that can print in 16 bit, and there isn't any discernible difference, big commercial printers (machines) have fewer inks and subsequent tonal possibilities.

Thank you.

Dang.

sek

Thanks, I'll check out.

Scott
Cameras: 1DXII,5D III, 5D II.  Lenses    24-70 2.8L II IS, 70-200 f4L IS, 70-200 f2.8L IS II, EF 400 5.6L, 300 2.8 IS II, Samyang 14 mm 2.8.   Flashes: 600EX-RT X 2, ST-E3-RT, 580 EX II.
Plus lots of stuff that just didn't work for me

privatebydesign

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 01:12:51 AM »
You're welcome Scott.

What are you hoping to achieve from the printing that you aren't getting at the moment?
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Valvebounce

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 03:45:04 AM »
Hi Scott.
I may be missinformed about this, (it has been known to happen!  ::) ) but if you are editing the shots then the raw bears no relation to the final image as adjustments are not made to the raw but stored in a separate file as a recipe of adjustments that need to be done to the raw. I use DxO so I get .dop files for each adjusted image, therefore the raw must be converted on output to a different format.
If I have missed the point please improve my knowledge by explaining the error I have made.

Cheers, Graham.
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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 03:45:04 AM »

sulla

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2017, 08:11:52 AM »
Why would you want to?
Print an image without whitebalance-adjustments, without cropping, colour corrections, sharpening, without any control over the image directly out-of-camera?
If your issue is printing quality, then just avoid 8-bit JPG.
I would recommend to make all necessary adjustments from the RAW image in LR, PS, C1 or any other image editing software and export to 16bit TIFF in a wide gamut colour space (e.g. proPhotoRGB). That will be fine for printing with most printing shops. Translation from your file to the best hardware-limited possible printing result will be performed there.

Only the lower quality prhint shops will be limited to sRGB 8bit JPG...
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privatebydesign

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2017, 08:53:42 AM »
Why would you want to?
Print an image without whitebalance-adjustments, without cropping, colour corrections, sharpening, without any control over the image directly out-of-camera?
If your issue is printing quality, then just avoid 8-bit JPG.
I would recommend to make all necessary adjustments from the RAW image in LR, PS, C1 or any other image editing software and export to 16bit TIFF in a wide gamut colour space (e.g. proPhotoRGB). That will be fine for printing with most printing shops. Translation from your file to the best hardware-limited possible printing result will be performed there.

Only the lower quality prhint shops will be limited to sRGB 8bit JPG...

That is terrible advice. No printer (person) would ever ask for a print file in proPhotoRGB. The maximum anybody, even those with wide gamut printers (machine) is going to want will be AdobeRGB. But that is missing the nuance of converting screen images into prints and pushes you into Rendering Intents compromises.

As Graham points out the larger bit depth file is the tool for editing, a print file should need no editing other than maybe slight printer profile adjustments which truthfully you, the image owner, should apply before you convert to the print file, once you have your edited image an 8 bit file is perfectly capable of holding all the information a printer needs. Most commercial print shops do not have printers (machine) with wide gamut ink sets anyway.

Don't forget printers (machine) are not dumb objects, they do a lot of image processing to ease the transition from screen to print,  adaptive to subtractive color science, dithering, resolution smoothing etc etc.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

sulla

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 09:49:47 AM »
Sorry, private, I do noit agree to your reasoning why proPhotoRGB should be a bad colour space for printing. As long as you make sure the print shop can handle this colour space and embedded ICC profiles, you should be fine.
So you argue AdobeRGB is better? Why so? In a lot of situations sRGB is a better colour space than adobeRGB, because it is a smaller colour space with thus smaller colour steps and IF your image does not contain colours outside of sRGB and inside adobeRGB (deep greens mainly), then sRGB is a better choice for 8bit depth (because sRGB 8bit gives finer colour steps than adobeRGB 8bit). Colour steps can be noticeable in 8bit images (e.g. in a blue sky). So I disagree with your statement that 8bit images hold "all the information a printer needs". 16bit images are superior when sublte colour shades are involved.

Now, for a 16bit image, colour steps are not relevant any more, because they are so fine even in a large colour space they will never be noticeable. So, I stick to my recommendation.

Indeed, it would be wise to ask the print shop one wants to submit files for printing what colour profile, space and image format to use. Good print shops will offer ICC profiles of their printers and media for download.

But, I'll make sure my statements are correct: A friend of mine happens to be a professional printer (albeit not a fine graphics ink printer, but a pantone-leaflet printer), and I'll check what he has to say on that topic. I'll report back.
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sulla

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2017, 10:12:24 AM »
Until I get answers from my friend, I found a nice article by Arnaud Frich (http://www.color-management-guide.com/choosing-between-srgb-adobe-rgb-and-prophoto.html) who is also recommending "ProPhotoRGB 16 bits", because some printers actually can print a certain amount of difference to AdobeRGB in greens and blues. But it is not large. The difference to sRGB is noticeable, nowever.
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BeenThere

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 10:40:05 AM »
Ask the print shop what they want first.
Having said that, usually better print shops want a file with embedded color profile. The problem with using prophoto as the embedded profile is that some of your colors may be pretty far out of gamut for printer. The printer will have to make the decision to clip these color, or bring them into gamut using perceptual (gradual transition) intent. AdobeRGB is much closer to what printer can reproduce, so sending your print file with this embedded allows you to have more control of the colors at the edge of the gamut boundary.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:30:15 PM by BeenThere »

privatebydesign

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 11:01:27 AM »
Sorry, private, I do noit agree to your reasoning why proPhotoRGB should be a bad colour space for printing. As long as you make sure the print shop can handle this colour space and embedded ICC profiles, you should be fine.
So you argue AdobeRGB is better? Why so? In a lot of situations sRGB is a better colour space than adobeRGB, because it is a smaller colour space with thus smaller colour steps and IF your image does not contain colours outside of sRGB and inside adobeRGB (deep greens mainly), then sRGB is a better choice for 8bit depth (because sRGB 8bit gives finer colour steps than adobeRGB 8bit). Colour steps can be noticeable in 8bit images (e.g. in a blue sky). So I disagree with your statement that 8bit images hold "all the information a printer needs". 16bit images are superior when sublte colour shades are involved.

Most can't and won't, they just send the image to the printer and you get a flat print, that is why. Yes if you are using a custom printer who opens each file you send them and spends time on each one and knows what they are doing and has a wide gamut printer etc etc than using ProPhotoRGB might get you a virtually imperceptibly 'better' result. But 99% of the time it won't, that is the reasoning behind my advice, apart from the fact that that kind of custom attention is going to cost you.

I am a custom printer that prints for other photographers, I can and do happily handle any color space and bit depth, the reason I recommend 8 bit jpeg for most images is the simple fact that in virtually every instance you will end up with a WYSIWYG, and that is what people want more often than an indiscernibly subtle shade difference that is irrelevant.

As for print file color space choice between sRGB and Adobe RGB, we could talk for hours, but AdobeRGB is never going to clip sRGB colors, sRGB can clip AdobeRGB colors, AdobeRGB is the largest commonly accepted colour space in this field so it will never hurt to use it, sure 85% of the time you don't need the full gamut, but if you are going to start choosing between the two the bigger, but supported, one makes more sense. If and when ProPhoto is fully adopted (it won't be) then it will make sense to save your print file in that.

But your article touches on the same issue I pointed out, the bigger the space you use the more out of gamut colors you are going to get when you send to print, this then means you have to make Rendering Intent decisions, you HAVE to have a wide gamut screen and printer to get a WYSIWYG and even then you won't truthfully get it.

AdobeRGB is going to be as good as we get, commonly, for ink sets and screens etc for a long time, trying to work outside that, post RAW processing, at this time is relatively painful and pointless, even your article agrees with that!
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 11:01:27 AM »

sulla

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2017, 12:07:16 PM »
So, got answer from my friend. He suggests
  • using 16bit TIFF as file format
  • not to include the print shops ICC profile - they do this themselves and
  • to check with the print shop on the best color space.
so, no real surprises there.

Question to the OP scottkinfw: What is the purpose of your print? You say "aluminum prints with high gloss finish." Is it just to hang it on some wall (a birthday present or something like this) or should it become a fine art print for an exhibition? What does Bay Roes recommend? Do they recommend anything?
Do you have any other questions, do you need any further info?
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sulla

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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 07:30:43 AM »
Just to complete the feedback of my friend (he is mostly doing offset-prints):
He said, he would happily accept files in L*ab mode, as this is the most device-independent image exhange format and the widest color space. But LR doesn't support it directly, Photoshop is needed for that, and I am not sure how practical this is for photo-printing. Probably not very...
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Re: Are there any companies that print from Canon Raw files
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 07:30:43 AM »