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Author Topic: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?  (Read 10806 times)

birdman

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2012, 09:30:09 AM »
Such a technical and debatable Q &  A. Interesting, though.

I don't think we have reached that limit yet...if it really can be reached. Wouldn't you still get sharper images if, all being equal, the resolving power of the sensor kept improving? In other words, even by using older lenses, if the sensor was "better" it would still improve IQ indefinitely. I think. Shoot, I don't know.  ::)
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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2012, 09:30:09 AM »

Leon

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2012, 11:02:48 AM »
Such a technical and debatable Q &  A. Interesting, though.

I don't think we have reached that limit yet...if it really can be reached. Wouldn't you still get sharper images if, all being equal, the resolving power of the sensor kept improving? In other words, even by using older lenses, if the sensor was "better" it would still improve IQ indefinitely. I think. Shoot, I don't know.  ::)

If you had read the previous posts you'd know the answer to that ;-)

jrista

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2012, 11:06:50 AM »
Such a technical and debatable Q &  A. Interesting, though.

I don't think we have reached that limit yet...if it really can be reached. Wouldn't you still get sharper images if, all being equal, the resolving power of the sensor kept improving? In other words, even by using older lenses, if the sensor was "better" it would still improve IQ indefinitely. I think. Shoot, I don't know.  ::)

As Leon stated...I believe my last couple answers should thoroughly answer that. ;) To keep it succinct though:

If  you keep increasing sensor resolution beyond the resolving power of the lens, you will reach a point at which you no longer gain any measurable benefit (diminishing returns). You will never reduce quality with a higher resolution lens, however you can make it harder to get perceptibly "sharp" photos at a pixel-peeping level. The higher the resolution, the greater the impact of deficiencies like camera shake, front/back focus, limited lens resolution and contrast, etc.
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Leon

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2012, 11:42:22 AM »
First of all, thanks for your long post, much appreciated.

Quote
At f/4 the lens could resolve about 173lp/mm, in which case the maximum useful sensor resolution at APS-C would be about 40mp, or 7716x5155 pixels.

How you get to that approximation will be obvious to me when I read through that link you posted, I suppose? Looking forward to some time to do that.

Quote
The EF 50mm f/1.4 lens has an MTF chart that indicates the lens has high contrast but acceptable resolution. Even at its ideal aperture, which appears to be f/4, this lens is not going to resolve as much detail (lp/mm) as a perfect lens. Its about 50% resolution at worst, 86% at best, or on average 68%.  This indicates that an 18.4mp APS-C sensor would be the highest resolution it could reasonably resolve to before the sensor starts consistently outresolving the lens at all apertures.

Ok, now the underlying math here seems to be interesting. Will get back to it.

From the three charts, the finest resolving sensor is in the 50D, maxed out it could (best case) deliver 106lp/mm. The MTF figure for the lens at f4 on the 50D is 2598. Can I, without any reservations, say that this figure equals 87lp/mm? (87lp/mm in turn equals about 10MP resolution on an APS-C.) If so: We now don't know what caused the gap between the sensors maximum 106lp/mm and the actual 87lp/mm, but couldn't it just be that the lens is already maxed out right there?!

Back to your post: 68% of 173lp/mm is 117lp/mm, which is like 18.5MP on APS-C, check. But: Best case you say, the 50/1.4 resolves 86% of a perfect lens. that would be 173lp/mm * 0.86 = 149lp/mm. Where does this come from?

BillyBean

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2012, 12:26:37 PM »
There are films out there which claim a resolution of 800 lines per mm. (see for example http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CMS_Films.html) I've used these films, and they provide pretty amazing results using existing Ef lenses such as 17-40mm L. I cannot confirm that they actually reach 800 lines per mm, as I have no means of measuring, and they sure are a pain to use, but I don't have any doubts that a good EF lens will have no difficulty with 50MP or thereabouts. I think the limiting factor is more likely softness resulting from diffraction limits at f8 and above, and the processing overheads of large files. Even on this latter point, I regularly work with scanned film images in the 80-100mb size range without any problem. It is only once you get into the 200-400mb range (which you do scanning 120 format negatives at 4800 dpi) that my poor laptop struggles (Windows 7 32 bit, 4 gb RAM). My understanding is that 50MP or less translates to RAW files less than 100mb. Just my 2 cents anyhow.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 12:32:43 PM by BillyBean »

jrista

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2012, 01:43:03 PM »
There are films out there which claim a resolution of 800 lines per mm. (see for example http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CMS_Films.html) I've used these films, and they provide pretty amazing results using existing Ef lenses such as 17-40mm L. I cannot confirm that they actually reach 800 lines per mm, as I have no means of measuring, and they sure are a pain to use, but I don't have any doubts that a good EF lens will have no difficulty with 50MP or thereabouts.


Remember that, assuming a lens was nearly optically perfect, it could only achieve such a resolution at wide apertures. An f/4 aperture could only resolve 39.77mp APS-C at 173 lp/mm (as its diffraction-limited at that point). A truly perfect lens at f/2.8 could resolve as much as 81mp APS-C, however I don't know of any Canon lens that doesn't have enough issues with optical aberrations at that aperture such that they overpower diffraction. Perhaps Zeiss has a specialty lens, as I've heard of one or two that can supposedly resolve 400lp/mm...which would have to be at around f/1.4, in which case they should certainly resolve the maximum resolution at f/2.8...but I've only heard of a couple rather obscure lenses that actually achieve that.
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jrista

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2012, 02:06:48 PM »
First of all, thanks for your long post, much appreciated.

Quote
At f/4 the lens could resolve about 173lp/mm, in which case the maximum useful sensor resolution at APS-C would be about 40mp, or 7716x5155 pixels.


How you get to that approximation will be obvious to me when I read through that link you posted, I suppose? Looking forward to some time to do that.


Yes...in the Luminous Landscape article, Table 1 lists the diffraction-limited (maximum physically possible) resolutions at all primary aperture stops for any "perfect" lens. Most lenses are not perfect, often by quite a degree, so the resolutions listed in that table are theoretical, but rarely achieved in reality. There are some rather obscure lenses, I think by Zeiss, that have (claimed) to achieve around 400 lp/mm, I've never seen one myself or used one, however that would have to be around an f/1.4 aperture...it would be physically impossible to achieve that resolution at any lower aperture. One would assume, however, that lower apertures were as nearly perfect as could be if f/1.4 reached 400 lp/mm (physical maximum at that aperture would be 494 lp/mm according to Table 1.)

Quote
The EF 50mm f/1.4 lens has an MTF chart that indicates the lens has high contrast but acceptable resolution. Even at its ideal aperture, which appears to be f/4, this lens is not going to resolve as much detail (lp/mm) as a perfect lens. Its about 50% resolution at worst, 86% at best, or on average 68%.  This indicates that an 18.4mp APS-C sensor would be the highest resolution it could reasonably resolve to before the sensor starts consistently outresolving the lens at all apertures.


Ok, now the underlying math here seems to be interesting. Will get back to it.

From the three charts, the finest resolving sensor is in the 50D, maxed out it could (best case) deliver 106lp/mm. The MTF figure for the lens at f4 on the 50D is 2598. Can I, without any reservations, say that this figure equals 87lp/mm? (87lp/mm in turn equals about 10MP resolution on an APS-C.) If so: We now don't know what caused the gap between the sensors maximum 106lp/mm and the actual 87lp/mm, but couldn't it just be that the lens is already maxed out right there?!


You are indeed correct, resolution at 2598 lines over the 14.9mm height of the 50D sensor would be 87lp/mm. Its plausible that the lens maxes out at that point, however I own the 50/1.4 and a 7D, and I am pretty sure it is capable of resolving more detail than that at f/4. I'm not sure I've ever taken a shot that did not look a little soft on my 7D when pixel-peeping, but I have not spent a lot of time fine-tuning microfocus adjustment for that lens on that body, so I can't say definitively I've seen the most the lens has to offer. Given how good most of the reviews about that lens are, I would assume its capable of well more than 87 lp/mm @ f/4.

Back to your post: 68% of 173lp/mm is 117lp/mm, which is like 18.5MP on APS-C, check. But: Best case you say, the 50/1.4 resolves 86% of a perfect lens. that would be 173lp/mm * 0.86 = 149lp/mm. Where does this come from?


Canon MTF charts are somewhat complex. They plot several sets of information, including contrast and sharpness for both maximum aperture and f/8, from center to corner of the lens. The vertical scale is the degree of perfection of the replicated image..from 0 to 1.0...or effectively 0% to 100%. If, at the center of the lens, wide-open sharpness is about 0.5, that would mean the lens reproduces the original image with about half the sharpness it could if it was perfect. At least, thats my understanding of Canon MTF charts...and not every manufacturer uses the same exact speficications when generating their own MTF's...so correlating Canon's MTF information with other lens brands can be difficult. Anyway...the 50mm f/1.4 lens' MTF chart can be seen on the Canon page for that lens here: http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_50mm_f_1_4_usm

Thin lines represent sharpness, thick lines represent contrast (or put another way, thin lines represent high frequency replication, thick lines represent low frequency replication...the two are useful for measuring the two key aspects of resolution...sharpness and contrast.) I'm drawing a blank on color and dashed vs. solid...one represents aperture (wide open vs. f/8), the other represents sagittal vs. meridonial, or the angle offset of the lines used to measure resolution (positive vs. negative 45°). So, from a resolution standpoint, wide open the lens can offer at best 50% the maximum sharpness that could be extracted from a scene with a perfect lens, and at f/8 it can offer about 86%. The average of those two is 68%. Its a rough number that I guess I was using to demonstrate the lens at around f/4, or "more frequently used apertures". As I mentioned before...lenses don't offer just one resolution, and you really need to pick the aperture your interested in to compare the lenses resolution at that aperture to the sensor resolution.

If you used the lens at f/8, theoretically according to Canon's MTF, you should be able to achieve about 149 lp/mm. Canon uses specialized devices and methods to measure lens resolution that are capable of far higher resolution than we can achieve with a Camera sensor. So, if their measurements are true, then the 50mm f/1.4 should outresolve any sensor on the market today...which would mean we could never really verify outselves...with a DSLR...whether the lens is actually capable of that or not. Most tests seem to indicate that the 50/1.4 tops out around f/4-f/5.6, but there could be a variety of other factors involved affecting those results (as seems obvious with the 50D test you included in your post.)
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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2012, 02:06:48 PM »

jrista

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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2012, 02:36:40 PM »
I guess a small nuance of Canon MTF charts should be clarified. I mentioned that they depict a lot of information, both at maximum aperture as well as f/8. It is a bit confusing, but at f/8, the maximum resolution is limited by diffraction at that aperture. At f/8, while maximum resolution is limited, it produces an 86% accurate reproduction of the test chart, where as at f/1.4, where maximum resolution is incredibly high, it produces only a 50% accurate reproduction of the test chart. The reason for the lower reproduction accuracy at f/1.4 is due to the presence of significant, uncorrected optical aberrations. As such, you are effectively getting LESS than the 86 lp/mm maximum resolution possible at f/8, and far less than the 494 lp/mm maximum resolution possible at f/1.4.

Additionally, for most lenses, it usually only takes a couple full stops down on the aperture to eliminate optical aberrations as the most significant resolution-diminishing factor, leaving diffraction as the only remaining detractor. That would be why f/4 exhibits more resolution than f/8, since the maximum diffraction-limited resolution at f/4 is 173 lp/mm, where as the maximum diffraction-limited resolution at f/8 is 86 lp/mm.

In light of this, I may be abusing the Canon MTF chart to depict "approximate resolution" at any given aperture, and I'm not really sure thats possible. At f/4 for the 50/1.4, its apparent that you get the best scene replication possible at that aperture, as that seems to be where the effects of diffraction and aberration normalize. At best, you could resolve the maximum amount of detail theoretically possible by whatever given sensor you are using (i.e. 116 lp/mm for the Canon 7D), however in reality you will see some diminished accuracy due to the low-pass filter and the nature of bayer sensors. In all honesty, I cannot accurately claim any resolution above what you could get at f/4, as at any wider or narrower aperture, resolution will fall off only semi-predictably.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 03:00:09 PM by jrista »
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Re: 36+ Mp EOS dSLR (rumored): How do existing EF lenses cope?
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2012, 02:36:40 PM »