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Author Topic: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]  (Read 47362 times)

K-amps

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Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
« Reply #135 on: February 10, 2012, 12:43:26 PM »
Two cameras with different sensors or same sensors but different firmware?

I believe they should be the different sensors.

+1: Sensors need to be optimized/ fine tuned. If by firmware you mean a crop... then both cannot be true FF sensors from a "framing" perspective. The latter won't be "wide" enough.

No, I didn't mean cropped. Rather one sensor 45MP with gapless subpixels producing 22MP raws...

That would be nice, kind of like they do with jpegs... but I fear converting RAW will yield in loss of data since it would need to be converted anyway and rendered, thus.... wont really be RAW anymore... right?
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Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
« Reply #136 on: February 10, 2012, 01:09:39 PM »
Splitting a line while merging another (1D series) doesn't seem very logical to me.
I'm sure we'll soon see 2 new DSLRs from Canon but I doubt they'll belong to the same line...

I don't really view the 1DX as "merging" a lineup but rather as the 1D line shifting to FF now that Canon has the tech to do so and keep 10+ fps and the 1Ds line being killed off.

The 1Ds mk3 seemed to me to be a camera that didnt fully know what its market was, alot of studio/landscape users felt they didnt need its double grip, fast AF or reasonable FPS and bought 5D mk2's instead. If this 5DX were to happen then it could be targeted much more specifically at those users  giving ultra high resolution, 100% viewfinder, widely spaced AF that was accurate more than fast, single grip body etc.

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Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2012, 01:22:23 PM »
    why only 51200 ISO while 1DX has 204800? i can't believe their sensosr has 2 steps difference in sensivity.

    Why not. ISO limits are set by firmware. Photosamples are jpeg's, which implies Dual Digic magic fairy dust... As long as the RAW noise levels are on par, we should be ecstatic!   ;)

    Then I wasn't that wrong with my guess.

    So, given this fact there are some additional technical questions:

    Can a sensor get hacked then to yield more ISO range?
    Let's say if Canon implements a derivate of the 1Dx sensor into the new whatever 5D (as posted at NL today) and lock it to 51200?
    The other question:
    Are sensors "programmed" to a certain ISO range or are they kind of "neutral"?

    Thanks for helping a non-tech.[/list]
    « Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 01:27:31 PM by pedro »
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    Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
    « Reply #138 on: February 10, 2012, 01:27:23 PM »
    Are sensors "programmed" to a certain ISO range or are they kind of "neutral"?

    A sensor has a given senstivity, just one sensitivity, e.g. ISO 100.  What is specified as the 'native' ISO range (100-51200 for the 1D X) is achieved by on-sensor amplifiers, meaning it's an analog gain.  The expanded ISO range - L, H1, and H2 - are achieved by digital amplification (or reduction for ISO 50) of the analog signal, after analog-to-digital conversion.
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    pedro

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    Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
    « Reply #139 on: February 10, 2012, 01:28:59 PM »
    @neuro: thx a lot!
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    LetTheRightLensIn

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    Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
    « Reply #140 on: February 10, 2012, 01:55:10 PM »
    For all of you, I am not sure if this is a correct source or not, but Taiwanese Photographer Kevin Wang, who was lucky enough to have the chance to test the 5Dmk3, just posted a video of the 5dmk3 commercial video on his facebook, it seems that the specs are:

    28.1 megapixel, 8.2fps continuious shooting mode, iso range 50-12800 (I assume this is including h1&h2), digic 5 processor, 45 cross typed af points and similar body design with the mk2 but with slight adjustment ergonomically. ~

    Anyone got any info on that one?? please correct me if i am wrong~

    Those specs would be pretty much my 100% ideal, sounds awesome, but sadly there is no way he would have and post the 5D3 commercial he'd have been sued to bankruptcy by now. I didn't check the link but there have been lots of fake 5D3 commercials going around.
    And I don't see Canon going 8.2fps if they get it up to 28MP, I think they'd stop at 6.3fps of the 50D to as to not threaten the 1DX quite that much and because a 6fps FF mirror/shutter probably would cost them some real degree less money to produce than an 8fps one.

    28MP, 6fps, 1D4 AF, something like that would be reasonable IMO, and awesome, they could produce that in their sleep but it's a little hard to have full faith with the way they've been acting the last half decade plus. A large part of me thinks it might be specs very much like 28MP,6fps,better than 7D AF, for certain reasons, and I'd almost be sure but CR/NL keep coming out with rumors anything BUT that so I don't know anymore.
    « Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 01:58:27 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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    Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
    « Reply #141 on: February 10, 2012, 02:03:24 PM »
    this rumor is taken with a very large grain of salt...  :)

    I think this rumor makes the Dead Sea look fresh.

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    Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
    « Reply #142 on: February 10, 2012, 02:19:53 PM »
    this rumor is taken with a very large grain of salt...  :)

    I think this rumor makes the Dead Sea look fresh.

     :D :D :D that was awsome  :D :D :D
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    Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
    « Reply #143 on: February 10, 2012, 02:37:59 PM »
      why only 51200 ISO while 1DX has 204800? i can't believe their sensosr has 2 steps difference in sensivity.

      Why not. ISO limits are set by firmware. Photosamples are jpeg's, which implies Dual Digic magic fairy dust... As long as the RAW noise levels are on par, we should be ecstatic!   ;)

      Then I wasn't that wrong with my guess.

      So, given this fact there are some additional technical questions:

      Can a sensor get hacked then to yield more ISO range?
      Let's say if Canon implements a derivate of the 1Dx sensor into the new whatever 5D (as posted at NL today) and lock it to 51200?
      The other question:
      Are sensors "programmed" to a certain ISO range or are they kind of "neutral"?

      Thanks for helping a non-tech.[/list]

      Pedro let me try :

      A) Don't know about sensors being hacked; but certainly the system can be "hacked" for example, I have an older Rebel XT with a nominal max ISO setting of 1600. There are hacks out there that let you set it at 3200. These hacks do not compensate for added noise nor do they increase the NR or Sensor performance, but allow you to shoot at 3200 (which results in more noise), but is possible.

      B) Yes; they can lock allowable ISO settings at any lower level they want. There could be an upper limit to which the analog amplifiers will saturate, but I suspect the image will be very useless before the chip op-amps saturate i.e. the image is overrun with distortion + Noise. Manufacturers do this to differentiate products routinely.

      B2) Sensors have the ability to collect light / photons. They collect Chroma based on the Bayer sensor, they are as neutral as the Bayer filter allows. On the other hand, since light is collected over time, the system can use a smaller "time slot" (high ISO) and lock the signal, amplify it based on the small sample of data it has collected. The higher the ISO, the smaller the sample of data collected that can be reconstructed as an image. Digital noise and artifacts are by-products of this reconstruction.

      If you look at the sensor Die, there is a lot of surface area taken up by electronics not just photo diodes (light collectors) . The extra electronics reduces the efficiency of collection of light. Since the ratio of surfaces of the photodiodes to "extra electronics" goes up with sensor size, so does it's ability to collect more light cleanly. Hence larger sensors have lesser noise.

      Sony has just patented such a sensor design, it purports a 20% increased surface area for the actual photo diodes. Seems very promising, but yet to be tested in real life.

      Hope this helps.
      « Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 02:41:38 PM by K-amps »
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      Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
      « Reply #144 on: February 10, 2012, 02:44:31 PM »
      Two cameras with different sensors or same sensors but different firmware?

      I believe they should be the different sensors.

      +1: Sensors need to be optimized/ fine tuned. If by firmware you mean a crop... then both cannot be true FF sensors from a "framing" perspective. The latter won't be "wide" enough.

      No, I didn't mean cropped. Rather one sensor 45MP with gapless subpixels producing 22MP raws...

      That would be nice, kind of like they do with jpegs... but I fear converting RAW will yield in loss of data since it would need to be converted anyway and rendered, thus.... wont really be RAW anymore... right?

      I think yes and no :) :) Yes - raw is raw and that's all. No - the way each pixel's value is calculated based on subpixels (r,g,b) makes ithe whole process all not so pure from the very beginning.
      K-amps, look - if you would have 45MP sensor, you have 8216x5477. If you have 20MP, you have 5477x3651. 8216/5477 = 3/2 and 5477/3651=3/2. It means, that you can have 20MP image by getting each 2 pixels from 3 others (on the edge, more complicated in the middle but also simple). Such an accurate conversion would not seriously influence the image quality, or would it?
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      LetTheRightLensIn

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      Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
      « Reply #145 on: February 10, 2012, 02:46:29 PM »
      Is anyone else getting somewhat worried that one guy who has seen and held the new 5D3 keeps saying stuff like: "The marketing mistakes Canon makes repeatedly lately is an understimation of the pace of innovation needed to keep a strong position in the market. The 5D mk II successor, still not announced, will be a disappointment to many."

       :'(

      Honestly I don't see how they could be THAT out of touch, they have to know that D700 successor would solve the missing MP and video issues and that they can't just sit around and give us some minor little increment. And really they should be trying to dominate not merely just barely keep pace. They do have the tech, better than Nikon can come up with in most if not all cases, but they just don't seem to care to put it into production. But maybe they are that out of touch. They just saw high 5D2 sales and didn't get the how and why and how things are changing. They still refuse to even outline the histogram box so you can see it when outdoors under the sun because that would not be the Canon way or some such nonsense. They couldn't even foresee that people would want manual control for video in the 5D2 and it took major Hollywood players leaning on them for months to get them to see the light. Hopefully there really is not some deeper reason behind the President of Canon just having resigned.

      Anyway, I still find it hard to believe they would dare be so out of touch as to mess up the 5D3 so I will just assume, until proven otherwise, that it will be cool and fantastic :D and that the guy who saw it was just thinking about other sorts of things being lacking that many of us won't care about too much.
      « Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 02:48:33 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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      Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
      « Reply #146 on: February 10, 2012, 02:51:16 PM »
      Is anyone else getting somewhat worried that one guy who has seen and held the new 5D3 keeps saying stuff like: "The marketing mistakes Canon makes repeatedly lately is an understimation of the pace of innovation needed to keep a strong position in the market. The 5D mk II successor, still not announced, will be a disappointment to many."

       :'(

      Honestly I don't see how they could be THAT out of touch, they have to know that D700 successor would solve the missing MP and video issues and that they can't just sit around and give us some minor little increment. And really they should be trying to dominate not merely just barely keep pace. They do have the tech, better than Nikon can come up with in most if not all cases, but they just don't seem to care to put it into production. But maybe they are that out of touch. They just saw high 5D2 sales and didn't get the how and why and how things are changing. They still refuse to even outline the histogram box so you can see it when outdoors under the sun because that would not be the Canon way or some such nonsense. They couldn't even foresee that people would want manual control for video in the 5D2 and it took major Hollywood players leaning on them for months to get them to see the light. Hopefully there really is not some deeper reason behind the President of Canon just having resigned.

      Anyway, I still find it hard to believe they would dare be so out of touch as to mess up the 5D3 so I will just assume, until proven otherwise, that it will be cool and fantastic :D and that the guy who saw it was just thinking about other sorts of things being lacking that many of us won't care about too much.

      Who is this "guy" you keep referring to Lens?
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      Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
      « Reply #147 on: February 10, 2012, 02:52:17 PM »
      I think yes and no :) :) Yes - raw is raw and that's all. No - the way each pixel's value is calculated based on subpixels (r,g,b) makes ithe whole process all not so pure from the very beginning.
      K-amps, look - if you would have 45MP sensor, you have 8216x5477. If you have 20MP, you have 5477x3651. 8216/5477 = 3/2 and 5477/3651=3/2. It means, that you can have 20MP image by getting each 2 pixels from 3 others (on the edge, more complicated in the middle but also simple). Such an accurate conversion would not seriously influence the image quality, or would it?

      I will give you that... kind of like sRAW ... ;)
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      LetTheRightLensIn

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      Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
      « Reply #148 on: February 10, 2012, 02:55:15 PM »

      Who is this "guy" you keep referring to Lens?

      eosfun

      Sometimes he does have a different take on things so hopefully what he finds a bit old hat will be cool to us. I hope.
      It is a little worrisome though that he seems to be trying to put a bit of a damper on expectations though. I guess we will see soon enough, perhaps.
      « Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 03:00:01 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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      Re: 5D Split? 5D X & 5D Mark III [CR1]
      « Reply #149 on: February 10, 2012, 03:10:33 PM »

      Who is this "guy" you keep referring to Lens?

      eosfun

      Sometimes he does have a different take on things so hopefully what he finds a bit old hat will be cool to us. I hope.
      It is a little worrisome though that he seems to be trying to put a bit of a damper on expectations though. I guess we will see soon enough, perhaps.
      never heard of him  ???
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