November 21, 2017, 01:29:32 AM

Author Topic: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview  (Read 102322 times)

bclaff

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #180 on: August 11, 2017, 01:43:50 PM »
...

Bigger sensor does not mean more DR at base ISO.

...
This depends on the context of what is meant by "DR".
If you're talking DR that has been normalized to a consistent print size and viewing distance, like Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) at PhotonsToPhotos or Landscape Score like at DxOMark then yes a larger sensor area will produce a higher DR (in general).
If you're talking about at the pixel level, well, that's "apples to oranges" and all bets are

Right you are.  But apples to oranges discussions are what keep the posts coming.  At this point, DR means pretty much whatever the poster wants it to mean. Signal to noise ratio is independent of sensor size.  Apparent noise in a print of a given size (viewed at a given distance) is related to sensor size, at least in most cases.  How significant is all this?  Don't even ask.  It would spoil the fun, and might reduce the level of those all important clicks.

+1

I agree that a larger sensor will have less noise and therefore more DR, all else being equal.  But when is all else equal?  Outside comparing a cropped image to an uncropped image from the same sensor, pretty much never.
In choosing a camera for a purpose the apples to apples part (all things being equal) is the final print size and viewing distance.
This is why for a technical test you want results that are appropriately normalized such as Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) at PhotonsToPhotos.
(I don't consider DxOMark properly normalized, but that's a different rat-hole :-) )

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #180 on: August 11, 2017, 01:43:50 PM »

Hflm

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #181 on: August 13, 2017, 01:02:25 PM »
...

Bigger sensor does not mean more DR at base ISO.

...
This depends on the context of what is meant by "DR".
If you're talking DR that has been normalized to a consistent print size and viewing distance, like Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) at PhotonsToPhotos or Landscape Score like at DxOMark then yes a larger sensor area will produce a higher DR (in general).
If you're talking about at the pixel level, well, that's "apples to oranges" and all bets are

Right you are.  But apples to oranges discussions are what keep the posts coming.  At this point, DR means pretty much whatever the poster wants it to mean. Signal to noise ratio is independent of sensor size.  Apparent noise in a print of a given size (viewed at a given distance) is related to sensor size, at least in most cases.  How significant is all this?  Don't even ask.  It would spoil the fun, and might reduce the level of those all important clicks.

+1

I agree that a larger sensor will have less noise and therefore more DR, all else being equal.  But when is all else equal?  Outside comparing a cropped image to an uncropped image from the same sensor, pretty much never.

Less "apparent" noise, in my opinion. The shot noise increases (same f-stop, shutter speed, ...).
"Thus, as the signal grows, the photon shot noise also grows, but more slowly; and the signal-to-noise ratio increases as the square root of the number of photons collected. The higher the illumination, the less apparent the shot noise; the lower the illumination, the more apparent it is."
http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/#shotnoise

Aglet

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #182 on: August 14, 2017, 01:05:52 AM »
...

Bigger sensor does not mean more DR at base ISO.

...
This depends on the context of what is meant by "DR".
If you're talking DR that has been normalized to a consistent print size and viewing distance, like Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) at PhotonsToPhotos or Landscape Score like at DxOMark then yes a larger sensor area will produce a higher DR (in general).
If you're talking about at the pixel level, well, that's "apples to oranges" and all bets are

Right you are.  But apples to oranges discussions are what keep the posts coming.  At this point, DR means pretty much whatever the poster wants it to mean. Signal to noise ratio is independent of sensor size.  Apparent noise in a print of a given size (viewed at a given distance) is related to sensor size, at least in most cases.  How significant is all this?  Don't even ask.  It would spoil the fun, and might reduce the level of those all important clicks.

+1

I agree that a larger sensor will have less noise and therefore more DR, all else being equal.  But when is all else equal?  Outside comparing a cropped image to an uncropped image from the same sensor, pretty much never.

Less "apparent" noise, in my opinion. The shot noise increases (same f-stop, shutter speed, ...).
"Thus, as the signal grows, the photon shot noise also grows, but more slowly; and the signal-to-noise ratio increases as the square root of the number of photons collected. The higher the illumination, the less apparent the shot noise; the lower the illumination, the more apparent it is."
http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/#shotnoise

yes,
and NR software has become very good are mitigating the appearance of that random noise so that even small sensors at hi iso can clean-up surprisingly well to produce an acceptable or at least usable image.

Pattern noise... not easy to improve the look of that w-o using post work to effect noise frame subtraction.

jeffa4444

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #183 on: August 14, 2017, 08:26:07 AM »
Any other 6D MKII users out there that have now passed their results through LR / PS CC?

We need more practical in the field results not lab tests.


Canon 5DS, Canon 6D, Canon 6D MKII,16-35 f4L IS USM, 17-40 f4L USM, 28 f2.8, 24-70mm f4L IS USM, 24-105 f4L IS USM, 100mm f2.8L IS USM, 70-200 f2.8L IS USM II, 70-300 f4-5.6 IS USM, 50 f1.8 STM, 100-400mm f4.5-5.6L IS USM II, 1.4EX III, EOS 760D, EF-S 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM & others.

tomscott

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #184 on: August 14, 2017, 10:26:36 AM »
Any other 6D MKII users out there that have now passed their results through LR / PS CC?

We need more practical in the field results not lab tests.

I shot a wedding on Friday il post some images later tonight.
6D MKII, 5D MKIII STOLEN, 7D MKII 70D 17-55mm F2.8 16-35mm F2.8 II L 24-70mm F2.8 L 24-105mm F4 L 70-200mm F2.8 II L 100-400mm F4.5-5.6 II L 2x II 1.4X III 580EX

Don Haines

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #185 on: August 14, 2017, 11:02:45 AM »
Any other 6D MKII users out there that have now passed their results through LR / PS CC?

We need more practical in the field results not lab tests.

I could help, but I don't want to let the cat out of the bag :)

First shot is at ISO1250.....

Second shot is at ISO102400, and the lightsouce is moonlight through the trees!

The best camera is the one in your hands

Ryananthony

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #186 on: August 14, 2017, 11:12:05 AM »
Don, What were the shutter speeds/ apertures of those two shots?

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #186 on: August 14, 2017, 11:12:05 AM »

Don Haines

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #187 on: August 14, 2017, 11:18:17 AM »
Don, What were the shutter speeds/ apertures of those two shots?

Both shots were with a 6D2 and a 70-200F4 IS. I have not done AFMA on the lens yet, and I am now fairly sure that I should.

The first shot is 1/50th of a second at F5.6, lens at 180mm
The second shot is 1/60th of a second at F4.0, lens at 185mm


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Aglet

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #188 on: August 15, 2017, 05:58:41 PM »
I don't think your approach is viable for many from a financial and practical standpoint,

True. it certainly isn't! :)
not many can have 5 fairly well equipped major systems to choose from so when I'm comparing them and presenting information it's coming from a source few individuals can match.


Quote
so I doubt its good advice for anyone except most extreme cases needing low iso latitude. However, those people tend to know their stuff and shoot film ;)

I only shoot film for fun these days.
And frankly, it's not that much fun any more. LOL


Quote
For what it is worth, my 5DIV has more shadow detail than what I need at virtually any ISO. I even go so far to say that if low ISO DR is regularly a problem, a good photo workshop on lighting is a better investment than a new body.

That's just not practical for most of the outdoor world tho. That's why better image capture tech is used in those conditions.

Aglet

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #189 on: August 16, 2017, 04:34:45 AM »
Whether you are a reasonable source depends whether your can take pictures.
I (we) surely don't need advice about a next car purchase from a guy with Ferrari that cant drive and has the need to brag in an Internet forum about it.
Frankly, statements like "film is little fun" (u kidding?) and "5D4 is impractical for the outdoor world" (seriously?) don't gain street credits nor suggest any skills.

HAHA!
I've shot film since the 70s.. I've had enough. I'm not that patient any more and, frankly, have you seen what you can do with digital?!?  It's amazing! :)

I did not say the 5d4 was impractical for the outdoor world.  It's the most practical camera I think Canon's ever made. FWIW.
LIGHTING is impractical for the outdoor world. LOL

Aglet

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #190 on: August 17, 2017, 12:39:40 AM »
LIGHTING is impractical for the outdoor world.

And this hardly makes your case any better.

you must be thinkin' small or you have a huge lighting budget :)

let's see you light the shadow-side of a mountain range so it looks natural across 3 miles of view

Talys

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #191 on: August 17, 2017, 01:46:50 AM »
LIGHTING is impractical for the outdoor world.

And this hardly makes your case any better.

you must be thinkin' small or you have a huge lighting budget :)

let's see you light the shadow-side of a mountain range so it looks natural across 3 miles of view

There is a way to light up a mountain range, by the way; wait for the sun to move :D  There are a lot of shots where you just have to take it at a different time of day, under different conditions, or in a different season to get the desired shot.

But jest aside, there are lots of outdoor shots that aren't landscapes or vista where lighting can be the difference between something that looks like professional photography, and something that looks like a cell phone pic.  Strobes, softboxes, beauty dishes are all key to overpowering natural lighting and getting the shot you need when you need it.  It's a lot of experience, and if I'm honest, something that I'm not very good at -- because I rarely do those shots.  But whether it's a person, hummingbird, or flower, lighting can definitely help a lot of shots.

I remember my wife thinking I that I had lost it when I dragged out softboxes, light stands, strobes and power into the back yard, just to get some photos of cherry blossoms the first year we moved into our home :D

Aglet

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #192 on: August 17, 2017, 03:41:06 AM »
LIGHTING is impractical for the outdoor world.

And this hardly makes your case any better.

you must be thinkin' small or you have a huge lighting budget :)

let's see you light the shadow-side of a mountain range so it looks natural across 3 miles of view

Wait for the right light (or make it)? :o

well, "making it" would likely require an airburst from a small nuke with a suitably robust set of barn doors. LOL
sadly, no "modelling-mode" for setting up.

Quote
If you can't, you don't get the same IQ. There are a series of techniques available but a 1/2 stop (or even more) base DR difference hardly saves the day. ..or just show us that we are wrong and back up your words with images!

HAHA!  Tough talk from the guy with a 5d4.  ;)
Yes, there's not a big difference between that camera and the ABCs I use for landscape but what about your lesser brethren shooting things like 5d2/3 or 6d2/3 or older crop?...
There are definite advantages to having every bit of noise-free DR possible in tough situations.  more is always better here. :)

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #192 on: August 17, 2017, 03:41:06 AM »

Mikehit

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #193 on: August 17, 2017, 03:46:50 AM »

HAHA!  Tough talk from the guy with a 5d4.  ;)
Yes, there's not a big difference between that camera and the ABCs I use for landscape but what about your lesser brethren shooting things like 5d2/3 or 6d2/3 or older crop?...
There are definite advantages to having every bit of noise-free DR possible in tough situations.  more is always better here. :)

And at the time they bought their 5D2/3, what FT alternatives were available? Oh, yeah those same predecessors to the E-M1 mkII that you way were so bad. So instead of switching systems to the model you claim is superior it would make sense to get the 5D4.

Aglet

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #194 on: August 17, 2017, 03:48:21 AM »
I remember my wife thinking I that I had lost it when I dragged out softboxes, light stands, strobes and power into the back yard, just to get some photos of cherry blossoms the first year we moved into our home :D

Yes, those unfamiliar often think we're nuts when we pull out lighting gear on a sunny day... until they see the difference. :)
I actually carry a small reflector with me in my daily backpack!  It's just a piece of white coroplast I cut out which doubles as a stiffener for one of the compartments but also gets plenty of use directing ambient light to fill shadows when I'm taking close-ups or macro shots of stuff as part of my day-job.  It's also used as a shade to block unwanted reflections in similar situations.

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Re: Review: Canon EOS 6D Mark II by DPReview
« Reply #194 on: August 17, 2017, 03:48:21 AM »