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Author Topic: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop  (Read 2634 times)

mStevens

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Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« on: February 10, 2012, 10:23:29 AM »
I am not a big fan of tripods or monopods. I prefer to hand hold my 40D camera, but I know that once you go past a 300mm range you risk blurry shots.

 I am considering a FF camera as my next purchase and want to know if there is a difference between hand holding a FF camera and a cropped camera using an IS lens with a long reach.
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Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« on: February 10, 2012, 10:23:29 AM »

Z

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 10:32:20 AM »
I haven't had experience using a full-frame camera, but I would assume that, due to the shallower depth of field at a given focal length and aperture on a FF sensor, any small movements that you make after focusing are more likely to introduce out-of-focus blur to your shots. This is my best guess, though.

On the other hand, for the same lens... actually let's have an example. A 50mm prime lens, using the 1/focal length rule of thumb for avoiding camera shake blur, would require 1/50sec on a full-frame sensor, but 1/80sec for a crop body.

Zo0m

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 10:39:28 AM »
You might also enjoy (probably) better low light performance of the FF. That way you can raise the ISO and the shutter speed, thereby reducing the movement blur...
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mStevens

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 10:42:25 AM »
I guess I was more concerned about camera shake. I am hoping that since the FF is not cropped, it won't be as sensitive to camera shake.
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marekjoz

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 10:46:38 AM »
The same shutter on FF and crop - IN TERMS OF YOUR QUESTION you have like "shorter lens" on FF comparing to crop.
And as mentioned before you can set faster shutter speed.

Summarizing - on FF you could shoot more from hand than on crop using same lenses.

(But if you would like have same reach as on crop, you are forced to use longer focal lens = + extender and loss of light or + longer lens and loss of money or some quality depending on quality etc.)

I guess I was more concerned about camera shake. I am hoping that since the FF is not cropped, it won't be as sensitive to camera shake.

It's same sensitive as crop with shorter lens and some higher iso.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 10:53:12 AM by marekjoz »
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mStevens

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 10:58:14 AM »
(But if you would like have same reach as on crop, you are forced to use longer focal lens = + extender and loss of light or + longer lens and loss of money or some quality depending on quality etc.)

Marekjoz, I have a 2X extender that I don't use with my 70-200 now because I would have to use a monopod. But if I buy a FF and use the 2X extender with a 70 - 200mm lens will i have to use a monopod to avoid camera shake when I handhold the camera?
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marekjoz

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 11:09:23 AM »
(But if you would like have same reach as on crop, you are forced to use longer focal lens = + extender and loss of light or + longer lens and loss of money or some quality depending on quality etc.)

Marekjoz, I have a 2X extender that I don't use with my 70-200 now because I would have to use a monopod. But if I buy a FF and use the 2X extender with a 70 - 200mm lens will i have to use a monopod to avoid camera shake when I handhold the camera?

I assume 70-200 f4? With 2x ext you will have f8 max. Of course everything depends on light conditions. In a sunny day it you often could shoot @iso100 or @iso200, f11 and minimum 1/800s. If you have 1/800s or faster then on longest end (400mm) you can avoid tripod. But it requires really good lighting conditions.


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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 11:09:23 AM »

awinphoto

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2012, 11:11:03 AM »
With so many factors such as the crop factor on the 40D and the shallow DOF of the FF, how steady your hands are and technique, the both are going to have trade off's and it's going to come down to practice and how you're shooting.  The general rule of thumb was 1/focal length for handholding, however on higher density cameras, you may have to compensate more.  Some of the newer lenses allow up to 3-4 stops IS, but I would shoot at the fastest shutter you could afford to shoot at regardless not to tempt fate.  Lastly, IS wont stop action, just camera shake, to an extent, so keep that in mind when shooting bigger lenses... and if you're able to shoot fast enough shutter speeds, IS will have even less of a factor other than having a more stable image in the view finder. 
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friedmud

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2012, 01:23:33 PM »
Another thing is the pixel density.  As pixel density goes up the sensor will be more susceptible to shake (because each pixel sees a smaller arc of light, essentially making light "move faster" across the pixel as the camera moves).

This would make the current round of crop sensors more susceptible to shake than FF (because the pixel density is much higher).

Tijn

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2012, 01:53:28 PM »
I guess I was more concerned about camera shake. I am hoping that since the FF is not cropped, it won't be as sensitive to camera shake.

Expanding on that thought...

For EF lenses, the projected image will shift a similar distance on the sensor when the camera is "shaken" whether it is a full-frame or a crop sensor. But on a crop sensor, the part of the sensor used for image recording is smaller. Consequently, the same distance on the sensor will be "blown up" on a crop sensor - the "shake" distance on the final image will be larger relative to the image size on a crop sensor.

However, the framing from the fullframe camera is different from the crop sensor. The crop sensor effectively 'zooms' more into the tele direction. As we all know, shake becomes more noticable the longer the focal length of your lens is. Effectively, crop cameras increase focal length - and in the process, the shake becomes more noticable.

Example: a 300mm lens on a crop camera vs a 300mm lens on a fullframe camera will physically have the same 'blur' distance on the sensor. But the crop camera blows up a small part of the image, including the blur distance contained in it, so the blur is more prominent relative to the final image size than for the fullframe camera. Note however that 300mm on a crop camera is the equivalent focal length of 480mm on a fullframe camera. So the increased shake is 'to be expected'. In this comparison, we're not comparing apples to apples; we're comparing different effective focal lengths.

Because focal length is effectively smaller on a fullframe camera compared to on a crop camera, shake will be less noticable when using the same lens. However, if you use a bigger lens on a fullframe camera to get the same framing as you would on a crop with a smaller lens, the shake can be just as prominent. In practise it probably won't be as prominent, because a fullframe camera with a bigger lens is also heavier - larger inertia, less shake. You might not even be handholding it at any more at that point.

Jim K

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2012, 02:40:58 PM »
I guess I was more concerned about camera shake. I am hoping that since the FF is not cropped, it won't be as sensitive to camera shake.

Expanding on that thought...

Example: a 300mm lens on a crop camera vs a 300mm lens on a fullframe camera will physically have the same 'blur' distance on the sensor. But the crop camera blows up a small part of the image, including the blur distance contained in it, so the blur is more prominent relative to the final image size than for the fullframe camera. Note however that 300mm on a crop camera is the equivalent focal length of 480mm on a fullframe camera. So the increased shake is 'to be expected'. In this comparison, we're not comparing apples to apples; we're comparing different effective focal lengths.

So if you want the same FOV on both cameras you would need a 500mm on the FF to equal the 300mm on the crop. I imagine one would shake a 500 more than one would shake a 300. And I don't want to get into the difference in cost.  ;D
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smirkypants

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2012, 03:28:44 PM »
If you're hand-holding, you're going to need a much longer/heavier lens to get the equivalent image. I think weight and fatigue are much more likely to cause blurry images than the crop. I hand hold a 400/f4 DO, a 100-400mm and a 300/2.8 all the time on a 7D and a 1D4. As long as you keep your film speed in quadruple digits, you shouldn't have any kind of problem at all hand-holding. I never have.

marekjoz

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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2012, 03:46:46 PM »
Yes it's getting harder and harder to address this question considering all the circumstances around.
1. If you don't change your lens you will have to walk more to cover the lack of 400mm-640mm focal range. Cause - you shake because you're tired.
2. With the full frame camera you're afraid that it could fall - it's more expensive so you're more careful. You hold it strongly and after a while you're tired. Cause - you also shake more.
3. With this experience you take a tripod with, which makes you tired again. So without a tripod you can't shoot without shaking all...

Sorry, but there are really so many things to consider... I choose a camera on base of lighting conditions, purpose, target, weather etc. Sometimes it is crop, sometimes FF. Sometimes one is better, sometimes the other...
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Re: Handheld shooting: FF vs. Crop
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2012, 03:46:46 PM »