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Author Topic: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]  (Read 43713 times)

mmeerdam

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 10:21:08 AM »
technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file). It's more the microlens and color filter array on top and how the data is subsequently interpreted that makes it a 60mp sensor.

There are still 120 million light sensing pixels on there. Even if they don't choose to market it that way.


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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 10:21:08 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Crazy idea
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 10:21:51 AM »
I don't want to get my hopes up, but here's a crazy idea.

Perhaps the 60 instead of 120 megapixels is due to a new type of dual-pixel AF technology, where they are using two full pixels instead of two photodiodes within each pixel. Two individual pixels could be married together virtually in software to create the DP AF effect.

That - I believe - would double the light per diode reading and potentially do two important things:
1) Allow better image quality
2) Increase the parallax between diodes, making the DP RAW features much more useful.

It would, however, require a crazy 120mp sensor. Just saying.

again, they called it a 120MP camera, with 120 effective MP's... the same way they have called every other camera.  this was in a press announcement.  they've demo'ed the camera. people have already checked the raw size in preview (and resolution)  I'd honestly give a higher CR rating to a published press announcement from canon versus a CR2 rating rumor, but that's just me ;)

two full pixels wouldn't work for DPAF. the reason it works is because the pixel is split in half and the left pixel is "turned around" from the right one.

also,

if canon is going for ultimate IQ.  DPAF is the last thing they should be implementing. DPAF costs probably around 1/3 to 1/2EV performance off the base sensor going by the only few samples and comparisions we have of similar technology points.  (70D to T6i sensor performance)

that's another reason it really doesn't pass the sniff test.  I can't see this being DPAF if it's the "ultimate DR/landscape/MP camera".  the two really don't combine.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 10:30:39 AM by rrcphoto »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 10:22:33 AM »
technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

mmeerdam

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 10:28:27 AM »
technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file.  That data has to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me :P .

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 10:29:22 AM »
technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file.  That data to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me :P .

so canon isn't calling the 5D Mark IV that, but they are going to change their entire convention with the 5DsR.

Right.

not to mention, why is there DPAF involved in this camera anyways.  unless it turns out it's a mirrorless camera, there's no way i'd want to see a DPAF sensor on a ultimate landscape/dr/mp body.

it makes no sense, you're losing around 1/3 to 1/2 EV just for splitting the pixels in half and adding the extra switch per pixel pair, for no reason because no one is buying this for video.

this camera is going against the FUji and the Nikon DSLR's .. it's got to have it's DR issues in order, and a higher effective DR than the IV has.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 10:38:07 AM by rrcphoto »

mmeerdam

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 10:39:07 AM »
technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file.  That data to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me :P .

so canon isn't calling the 5D Mark IV that, but they are going to change their entire convention with the 5DsR.

Right.

Are you actually that stupid or just acting dumb? I'm not saying they will call it that. I'm just arguing 60 is very plausible as we know they are able to make sensors with 120 million pixels in some form on it. Which is exacly 2 times 60 million dual pixels. I'm not replying to this anymore. We all know what's been out there by Canon for the last year. Nobody needs you to remind us what Canon calls stuff or doesn't call stuff. Let's see you return with some logical constructive insight instead of mindless nay saying.

SecureGSM

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Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 10:43:40 AM »
with 120Mp sensor shooting hendheld with non stabilised lenses at slower than 1/1000s shutter speed is out of question. Except some exotic UWA glass.  :D

I wonder if the business modeling shows that having a 100+ mp sensor would cause many people to adopt Sigma lenses, breaking the stigma on third party glass for the area of the market to which it still holds.

I shall now retreat to my fireproof bunker.

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Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 10:43:40 AM »

RGF

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 10:43:43 AM »
yawn

12 months out.

uninspired specs.

in the end, I suspect the camera will be very different than current posting

rrcphoto

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Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 10:46:13 AM »
with 120Mp sensor resolution shooting hendheld with non stabilised lenses at slower than 1/1000s shutter speed is out of question. Except some exotic UWA glass.

 ::)

shooting for the same print size as with a 5DSr II will yeld the same shutter speeds as you are currently using with the 5DSr.

do you have to shoot everything above 1/1000th of a second with a 20mp 1" sensor camera? or a Olympus 20MP m43 camera?

how do they manage?

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 10:49:14 AM »
technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file.  That data to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me :P .

so canon isn't calling the 5D Mark IV that, but they are going to change their entire convention with the 5DsR.

Right.

Are you actually that stupid or just acting dumb? I'm not saying they will call it that. I'm just arguing 60 is very plausible as we know they are able to make sensors with 120 million pixels in some form on it. Which is exacly 2 times 60 million dual pixels. I'm not replying to this anymore. We all know what's been out there by Canon for the last year. Nobody needs you to remind us what Canon calls stuff or doesn't call stuff. Let's see you return with some logical constructive insight instead of mindless nay saying.

Are you actually that stupid or just acting dumb applies to you more than me.

it's not very realistic because it's not what they are doing now with DPAF sensors, even one that they are outputting both halfs of the sensor (the Mark IV with dual pixel RAW).  so if they don't call a camera they are already outputting both halfs a 60mp sensor, why would they all of a sudden call it that way with another one?  not to mention that would give you twice the resolution in the horizontal direction only. so it would a pretty stupid idea :)

not sure what's so bloody hard to figure out here.  a 60mp DPAF sensor is NOT 120mp effective pixels on output.  good lord some people.

not to mention prior comments.  DPAF on this camera does not pass the sniff test either.

neither does a 2.2x (or whatever that would end up being) crop for 4K output as well.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 10:58:22 AM by rrcphoto »

jeanluc

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 11:00:35 AM »
I hope the specs are true.

A 60MP sensor, with on-chip ADC and everything else they've done to the 5D4 would be awesome. The new sensor tech makes 5d4 files as good as the D810 with a little less resolution... really minimal meaningful difference from my experience with both.

Even if they left it at 50MP and improved everything else it would be an even greater landscape camera. (The 5D4 and D810 already are, as is the 5DSR.)

DPAF in my opinion is a must. It rocks. I would not want a camera without it after using it (on the 5D4 and M5) and the 5D3/SR/D810 without it. Assuming you shoot your landscapes on a tripod using live view, it basically means AFMA doesn't matter. And with 50+ MP of resolution, that is a big deal. In fact I think it's one of the biggest things a mirrorless camera offers over DSLR's.

Obviously AFMA still matters; just not if you are using live view particularly with DPAF.

Also, files bigger than 50 Mp would make most computers very....very...slow....

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2017, 11:04:40 AM »
it basically means AFMA doesn't matter.

that's not exactly true.  phase detect on sensor does not get around focus shift.  Sony's been having all sorts of problems with this, which is the reason they currently AF stopped down.

I do believe that DPAF profiles try to take this into account, but they probably won't work with 3rd party lenses as well either since they mimic other canon lenses. however can't be a perfect science.


neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2017, 11:16:26 AM »
There are still 120 million light sensing pixels on there. Even if they don't choose to market it that way.

a 60mp DPAF sensor is NOT 120mp effective pixels on output. 

Exactly.  All of the dual pixels are 'split' in the same direction, so instead of the normal 3:2 aspect ratio, the non-exisent 120 MP output would have a squished 3:1 aspect ratio. 

Say you used the new 120 MP 5DsR II to take a picture of the original 5DsR and a 50/1.2L.  Would look pretty cool!  Maybe mmeerdam wants all his 120 MP pictures to look like that.   ::)
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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2017, 11:16:26 AM »

jolyonralph

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2017, 11:32:38 AM »
The question probably boils down to:

Which do you want more, A 60 mpx sensor with the ISO performance of the 80D, or a 120mpx sensor with significantly poorer ISO performance (laws of physics)?

Essentially the 5DSR mark 1 uses the same sensor tech as the 7D Mark II, but scaled up to full frame (same pixel pitch).  This would seem to be the same based on the APS-C 24mpx sensor (give or take a megapixel or two for marketing/rounding reasons) so one would assume it's based on the same tech.  Whether that is still the best tech in a year's time is of course anyone's guess. But who knows what the eventual camera will be.

And, of course, a 120mpx sensor will have a speed measured in frames per week ;)

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jolyonralph

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2017, 11:35:27 AM »
Note on above:  with downsampling a 120mpx sensor should, in theory, give the same DR as a 60mpx sensor, so it's not all bad. But still, it's going to mean you are starting with something that generates ridiculous raw files that you'll almost always need to downsample to get something sharp enough to use.

And remember all magazines and reviewers will pixel peek to show the ghastly noise and resolution at 120mpx, regardless of whether in practical use it offers a benefit or not.

Also, unless I'm missing something, the 120mpx sensor previously demoed didn't have DPAF, and I can't imagine much demand for a new body without DPAF now except a very very specialist one.

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Re: Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2017, 11:35:27 AM »