October 17, 2017, 08:36:35 PM

Author Topic: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]  (Read 18539 times)

neonlight

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2017, 05:53:40 PM »
Quote
Pellicle set ups do pull the mirror out of any potential high framerate bottlenecks, but they also steal some light from the sensor, on the order of 2/3 of a stop if I read correctly.  There is no free lunch.

...so why not FF mirrorless with fast (noblackout) EVF ...

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2017, 05:53:40 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2017, 07:14:01 PM »
I'm not sure if the balance scale illustration is supposed to include this "weight" in favor of an EF mount, but I think this would definitely help tilt the balance:

EF Mount -- Investment in current lenses is not impacted. Cost of entrance is camera body only.

New Mount -- Prince of entrance into the mirrorless world goes up by $600-$6000+ depending on how many lenses the buyer wants to replace.

End result -- every Canon DSLR owner is suddenly cut loose to shop on the open market with zero financial incentive to stick with Canon. Canon must completely rely on brand loyalty to retain customers. Their engineers, designers, etc. would argue that the quality of the camera would retain those customers. The people selling the cameras and paying the bills would argue that it's an unnecessary risk to take in a shrinking market.

I think the people paying the bills and selling the cameras would win out.

Sure.  I am not putting that chart forward to tip people's minds so much as paint two value propositions.  My mind is not made up on this at all.

That said, that red bit above implies an adaptor doesn't happen in the 'keep it small' plan, and of course an adaptor will be offered.  That would be mind-boggling fail if Canon didn't do that -- the new system's sales would be a fraction of what they could be.  The ground floor expectation of Canon's mirrorless strategy is that EF glass is welcome to the party on day one -- with the sole exception if they try a batting practice fixed lens rig a la the Sony RX1R or Leica Q before they launch an MILC mirrorless platform.

And I'm not sure what side of the scales the 'end result' above applies to -- presume you mean the 'keep it small' plan?  If so, again, an adaptor lets Canonites plug away with their EF glass on day one, so I don't see them being cut loose at all there.  They will however, likely have to spend money on 'new system stuff' (batteries, charger, etc.) and at least one new 'keep it small' lens expressly designed for the new system to keep it small (say a 35 f/2 or something). 

- A
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 09:06:23 PM by ahsanford »

scottburgess

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2017, 09:42:51 PM »
But I haven't seen mention of the most obvious: a FF amateur camera, basically an 80D with a larger body (call it an "8D" if you like).  This could sell well and continues Canon's trend of pushing FF down the line from the top.

Wait, what? The 6D Mk II is literally that, a full-frame 80D.  (Except with less base-ISO DR  ::)) A lower-tier FF would have to have a Rebel-like feature set and build. I'm pretty sure there's no market for that sort of a body.

Price of 6D: $2000.
Price of 80D: $1400.
There are definitely some parallels, but also differences such as GPS.

But lets ignore that, and suppose it is a closer parallel to the Rebel.  There are plenty of amateurs and folks with limited money who understand the benefits of a larger sensor.  Just because someone is starting out in Canon gear doesn't mean they are ignorant. 

Canon does extensive market research and has a business plan that appears to include more FF offerings, so perhaps there is a market for such a body.  We shall see.


AvTvM

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #108 on: September 21, 2017, 02:38:46 AM »
Quote
New Mount -- Prince of entrance into the mirrorless world goes up by $600-$6000+ depending on how many lenses the buyer wants to replace.

utterly wrong and ridiculous. price of entrance into a new, native mount FF-sensored Canon mirrorless world will be 0 to max 250 USD or €.

* 0 as in "zero" ... if Canon does the right thing and includes a simple "extension tube EF-X/EF mount adapter" with every mirrorless FF cam (which will not be sold cheap anyways)
* 99 USD if Canon charges extra ...  as for EF-M/EF adapter
* 250 USD ... only for those who want an EF adapter with full Phase-AF contraption including a (fixed) mirror - just like the Sony LA-EA4 (A-mount to E-mount). this will deliver absolutely seamless performance and behaviour for any existing EF lens, including old clunkers (without STM or NanoUSM AF drive).

Any further lens purchases can or cannot NOT be made at any future point in time ... if & whenever Canon launches new native mirrorless mount EF-X lenses that are better and/or more compact than old EF glass and EF glass owners would like to go for the new version - exactly like today's decision whethther to upgrade or not form a Mk. II lens to its Mk. III  successor. But there will be no immediate "entry cost" into a new mount mirrorless system for existing Canon EF lens owners. Nothing other than cost of new body [and batteries and grip and new bags and and and .. :-)]. Also, Canon mirrorless FF bodies will likely be priced even higher than DSLRs with comparable specs - despite much lower production costs ... greedy Canon :-)

« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 11:27:27 AM by AvTvM »

Mikehit

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2017, 03:10:52 AM »

* 250 USD only for those who want an EF adapter with full Phase-AF contraption including a (fixed) mirror - just like the Sony LA-EA4 (A-mount to E-mount). this will deliver absolutely seamless performance and behaviour for any existing EF lens, including old clunkers (without STM or NanoUSM AF drive).


I presume then that when Sony designed their flagship A9 they knew how they could get full operability with adapted lenses, but they chose to cripple that even for their own A-mount lenses.

Sharlin

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #110 on: September 21, 2017, 03:53:17 AM »
Wait, what? The 6D Mk II is literally that, a full-frame 80D.  (Except with less base-ISO DR  ::)) A lower-tier FF would have to have a Rebel-like feature set and build. I'm pretty sure there's no market for that sort of a body.

Price of 6D: $2000.
Price of 80D: $1400.
There are definitely some parallels, but also differences such as GPS.

And that price difference, I suspect, is almost entirely about the sensor and related parts. A $1400 FF would probably have to make quite a few compromises, eg. no weather sealing, a small pentamirror viewfinder, less FPS, etc. Which screams "Rebel".

GPS is pretty much the only major feature the 6D2 includes and the 80D lacks. OTOH the 80D has things the 6D2 misses, such as a headphone jack and faster shutter/x-sync speed (due to the smaller shutter required). In basically all other respects besides the sensor size, they're close to identical.

Quote
But lets ignore that, and suppose it is a closer parallel to the Rebel.  There are plenty of amateurs and folks with limited money who understand the benefits of a larger sensor.  Just because someone is starting out in Canon gear doesn't mean they are ignorant. 

Canon does extensive market research and has a business plan that appears to include more FF offerings, so perhaps there is a market for such a body.  We shall see.

Sure. But it doesn't quite make sense to me to prioritize the larger sensor to the extent of being prepared to compromise on other features that much, especially given how good crop sensors are these days.

jolyonralph

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #111 on: September 21, 2017, 05:13:49 AM »
I suspect this is going to be the '5DSR Mark II' that was previously discussed, assuming they can get performance up to a point where it will rival the Nikon 850.

So yes, expect a new line, which will have to be one of

EOS 2D   (doesn't sound impressive enough)
EOS 3D   (confusing if it's not a 3D camera)
EOS 4D   (no way, 4 is an unlucky number to use in chinese-speaking Asia)
EOS 8D   (most logical, but may be seen as 'inferior' to 5D and 6D lines)
EOS 9D   (maybe)

So my money is on a 60 megapixel EOS 8D in a 5D Mark IV shell which won't be simply seen as a specialist high-resolution camera as the 5DSR was.

Maybe we'll see a 120+ megapixel 8DSR in the future too ;)
Jolyon Ralph

Cameras: 5DSR, A7RII, 5D III, EOS M5/M3, Sony A6000, Mavic Pro, DXO One.  Oh, and more lenses than I care to count.

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #111 on: September 21, 2017, 05:13:49 AM »

Pascal Parvex

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2017, 11:47:42 PM »
The presented APS-H prototype sensors with 120 and 250 Megapixels will most probably end up in the 5Ds Mark II und III.

No.  A 5Ds where the 11-24/4L becomes equivalent to 14mm on the wide end?  No.  There won't be any more commercial APS-H bodies.

I know. I meant that those APS-H prototypes will end up als Full Frame Sensors in the 5Ds Mark II and III. The prototypes are APS-H because this is the size that is easiest for Canon to produce.

Tugela

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2017, 02:59:09 PM »
For the second time in the last couple of months, we’re being told that a new DSLR series will be announced some time in 2018. Neither source could name the series, only that it appeared as a “new DSLR series” in a presentation.</p>
<p>If we’re thinking out loud, I think these would be the obvious candidates.</p>

<ul>
<li>EOS Cinema DSLR
<ul>
<li><em>A cinema DSLR camera to replace the discontinued EOS-1D C. This has been talked about numerous times over the years.</em></li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>EOS-1D Xs
<ul>
<li><em>A high megapixel pro series body. Since the amalgamation of the 1D line back in 2009, we’ve always wondered if we’d get a camera like this to truly replace the EOS-1Ds Mark III. </em></li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>EOS APS-C Cinema DSLR
<ul>
<li><em>A cheaper 4K cinema alternative that would “protect” the Cinema EOS lineup of cameras.</em></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Hopefully this will bring a bit more information to the surface. For the moment, this is a <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-rumors-rating-system-explained/">[CR1]</a> rumor, so please treat it as such.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>


A video centric camera would likely abandon the mirror since it just gets in the way. So, not a DSLR.

The 1DC replacement was the C100 and related cameras.

ourmark

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2017, 03:01:39 PM »
First post. Be gentle!

I'm going to guess that this is going to be a high MP FF sensor in a "pro" body similar to the 1DX.

I think it will have the 60MP sensor which is slated to go in the 5DSR mark II. After all, didn't that rumor come with a teaser that we would see the sensor tech in another body first?

Burst rate won't be near the 1DX. Maybe somewhere in the 5-7 fps range.

Upside for Canon: They can steer their pro users away from the 5D series to something more expensive!

Tugela

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2017, 03:02:43 PM »
But I haven't seen mention of the most obvious: a FF amateur camera, basically an 80D with a larger body (call it an "8D" if you like).  This could sell well and continues Canon's trend of pushing FF down the line from the top.

Wait, what? The 6D Mk II is literally that, a full-frame 80D.  (Except with less base-ISO DR  ::)) A lower-tier FF would have to have a Rebel-like feature set and build. I'm pretty sure there's no market for that sort of a body.

Price of 6D: $2000.
Price of 80D: $1400.
There are definitely some parallels, but also differences such as GPS.

But lets ignore that, and suppose it is a closer parallel to the Rebel.  There are plenty of amateurs and folks with limited money who understand the benefits of a larger sensor.  Just because someone is starting out in Canon gear doesn't mean they are ignorant.

Canon does extensive market research and has a business plan that appears to include more FF offerings, so perhaps there is a market for such a body.  We shall see.

Actually, it does, lol.

Tugela

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2017, 03:14:36 PM »
For the second time in the last couple of months, we’re being told that a new DSLR series will be announced some time in 2018. Neither source could name the series, only that it appeared as a “new DSLR series” in a presentation.</p>
<p>If we’re thinking out loud, I think these would be the obvious candidates.</p>

<ul>
<li>EOS Cinema DSLR
<ul>
<li><em>A cinema DSLR camera to replace the discontinued EOS-1D C. This has been talked about numerous times over the years.</em></li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>EOS-1D Xs
<ul>
<li><em>A high megapixel pro series body. Since the amalgamation of the 1D line back in 2009, we’ve always wondered if we’d get a camera like this to truly replace the EOS-1Ds Mark III. </em></li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>EOS APS-C Cinema DSLR
<ul>
<li><em>A cheaper 4K cinema alternative that would “protect” the Cinema EOS lineup of cameras.</em></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Hopefully this will bring a bit more information to the surface. For the moment, this is a <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-rumors-rating-system-explained/">[CR1]</a> rumor, so please treat it as such.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>


A new "series" that is still a DSLR is far more likely to be a medium format camera than some iteration of what they already have.

To be a new series it would have to be different from what they already have, in other words it would be addressing a different market space than FF/crop/Pro/consumer. All iterations of the latter are already covered and they don't need a new series to add to that. Medium format on the other hand has no current Canon camera in the market place.

Such a camera would cost a small fortune at retail and would require new lenses. It would be a very specialist camera, one that is no likely to appeal (or be affordable) to most here.

Mikehit

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #117 on: September 25, 2017, 05:10:54 PM »
I think 'DLSR' is often used mistakenly often enough for any camera with interchangeable lens, and given that this rumour is a CR1 (grapevine and Chinese whispers) it is easily possible that this could refer to a new camera, DSLR or mirrorless.

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #117 on: September 25, 2017, 05:10:54 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2017, 05:11:28 PM »
To be a new series it would have to be different from what they already have, in other words it would be addressing a different market space than FF/crop/Pro/consumer. All iterations of the latter are already covered and they don't need a new series to add to that. Medium format on the other hand has no current Canon camera in the market place.

Agree a new series should serve a new/different market, but sensor size is not the only unexplored territory.  What about:

  • A dedicated rig for the YouTube / vlogging / etsy / product unboxing crowd?  Something clever with the ergonomics, with a constantly front facing LCD, etc.?

  • A 100% dedicated headshot/selfie rig with more ambitious (and integrated in the body) flash/illumination?

  • An ultra-light APS-C or FF module for drone operators?

- A

AvTvM

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2017, 02:44:31 AM »
something like "EOS 3DS, 3DS R and 3DS Astro" - positioned between 1 and 5 series DSLRs would definitely fully qualify to be rumoured as "new SERIES" of Canon DSLRs. even if ithe additional camera/s were only some of Canon's boring old "marketing and price differentiation" ploys and all specs of said "3DS SERIES" cameras taken "mix and match"  from existing 1, 5, xxD and 'Rebel' SERIES of Canon mirrorslappers.

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Re: New DSLR Series Coming in 2018? [CR1]
« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2017, 02:44:31 AM »