December 16, 2017, 06:03:13 AM

Author Topic: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]  (Read 14144 times)

traveller

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2017, 10:00:33 AM »
The point is that 35 mm is way too narrow if you make a zoom.
Really? Why is it acceptable for a prime lens compact, but not if it's a zoom?

SRLs used  to be shipped in 50 mm and then they went to 35-70 as that gave extra on both directions.
Yep and with modern lens designs, we should be able to keep a modest zoom like this much faster than the current batch of "enthusiasts' compacts" that are dog slow at the long end and do little to enthuse me. Check out the comparison graph in this DPreview article:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/2017-roundup-compact-enthusiast-zoom-cameras

Cameras like Fuji X100 already have 35 mm so you cannot compete with them with 35-70. It offers too little extra.

Too little extra? Other than being able to compress the perspective into the short tele range without cropping out half the pixels?

The fact that you prefer 35 mm is no reason to start with that. A fixed lens camera needs to be versatile.
Nor is it a reason not to, like I stated in my first post, some will prefer a range that starts at 24 or 28mm, but the comprise you have would be a shorter long-end, or a bigger lens (which starts to push the boundaries of pocketable). 'Versatile' can mean other things than having a wide focal length range, like maintaining good depth of field control and low light shooting abilities.

It would be little effort to modify the current lens to APS-C which would give f/2.5-4.8.
Your modified lens offers no advantages over the current one on the G1XII. I agree that f/2.5 is decent on APS-C, but f/4.8 is pretty much DSLR kit-zoom territory.Look at the DPreview graph again -see how quick the lens' apertures crash after 24mm equivalent?

People want wide angle.
Which people? Oh, the same people that always buy Powershots.
 
When S120 -> G9 X switch went from 24 mm to 28 mm people complained.
Because the current Powershot buyer wants a 24-120mm slow kit zoom equivalent, because that's the market that Canon targets every single bloody Powershot at, then claims that this market segment is stagnant/in decline?

I accept that Canon is simply going to make a G1XII clone but with an APS-C sensor and a rehash of the same lens. The point that I made in my first post was that this wouldn't be a camera that I would buy, which is why I don't own any of Canon's Powershot range: if you don't need a 600mm equivalent lens, then they're all basically the same camera!

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2017, 10:00:33 AM »

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2017, 11:21:08 AM »
The point is that 35 mm is way too narrow if you make a zoom.
Really? Why is it acceptable for a prime lens compact, but not if it's a zoom?

Because a zoom is a zoom and a prime is a prime. 35 mm is adequate indoors but nit ideal. 28 mm or 24 mm is better. The idea of a zoom is to be more versatile, to give what a prime cannot give.

SRLs used  to be shipped in 50 mm and then they went to 35-70 as that gave extra on both directions.
Yep and with modern lens designs, we should be able to keep a modest zoom like this much faster than the current batch of "enthusiasts' compacts" that are dog slow at the long end and do little to enthuse me. Check out the comparison graph in this DPreview article:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/2017-roundup-compact-enthusiast-zoom-cameras
[/quote]

Note how none of those start at 35 mm, most start at 24 mm.

Quote
Cameras like Fuji X100 already have 35 mm so you cannot compete with them with 35-70. It offers too little extra.

Too little extra? Other than being able to compress the perspective into the short tele range without cropping out half the pixels?
Quote

One can get a Tele adapter to the Fuji but my point is that you get nothing to the wide angle.

Quote
The fact that you prefer 35 mm is no reason to start with that. A fixed lens camera needs to be versatile.
Nor is it a reason not to, like I stated in my first post, some will prefer a range that starts at 24 or 28mm, but the comprise you have would be a shorter long-end, or a bigger lens (which starts to push the boundaries of pocketable). 'Versatile' can mean other things than having a wide focal length range, like maintaining good depth of field control and low light shooting abilities.

G1 X is nit meant to be pocketable G7 X and G9mX are for that. You lose depth of field control if you end at 44 mm. You will need f/2.6 to match the G1 X aperture size

People have different needs you apparently do not need wide angle, most do.

AvTvM

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2017, 11:36:59 AM »
Note how none of those start at 35 mm, most start at 24 mm.
Quote

fully agree! Has a lot to do with smartphone lenses having around 24-28mm equivalent FOV and people having gotten used to that capture perspective. 

An APS-C Powershot with 18-55 zoom [35 eq. FOV on the wide end] is unceivable by now. Canon also changed the kitzoom for their EOS M lineup from previously EF-M 18-55 to wider EF-M 15-45.

Sharlin

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2017, 02:47:20 PM »
Note how none of those start at 35 mm, most start at 24 mm.

fully agree! Has a lot to do with smartphone lenses having around 24-28mm equivalent FOV and people having gotten used to that capture perspective. 

An APS-C Powershot with 18-55 zoom [35 eq. FOV on the wide end] is unceivable by now. Canon also changed the kitzoom for their EOS M lineup from previously EF-M 18-55 to wider EF-M 15-45.

APS-C 18mm is 28mm equivalent, not 35mm. I don't think there have been 35mm (eqv) zooms since the 80s.

Apropos, it's interesting to me how 28-~85mm zooms evolved to the now-standard 24-70mm range, but standard crop zooms are, for the most part, still 18-~50mm. With some exceptions like the 15-45mm EF-M which is pretty exactly 24-70mm equivalent.

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2017, 05:01:53 PM »
Apropos, it's interesting to me how 28-~85mm zooms evolved to the now-standard 24-70mm range, but standard crop zooms are, for the most part, still 18-~50mm. With some exceptions like the 15-45mm EF-M which is pretty exactly 24-70mm equivalent.

It is harder to make so sort lenses small and cheap with the 44 mm flange focal distance, for EOS M with 18 mm it is simpler. The 15-45 mm is much smaller than the 18-55.

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2017, 05:22:34 PM »
Note how none of those start at 35 mm, most start at 24 mm.
Quote

fully agree! Has a lot to do with smartphone lenses having around 24-28mm raequivalent FOV and people having gotten used to that capture perspective. 

An APS-C Powershot with 18-55 zoom [35 eq. FOV on the wide end] is unceivable by now. Canon also changed the kitzoom for their EOS M lineup from previously EF-M 18-55 to wider EF-M 15-45.

I think the choices of 24 mm and 28 mm have more to do with the fact that those were common wide angles in the film era. Once the processor technology was developed enough to correct the distortions those became popular. Here is a graph that plots every Canon compact camera by announcement date and shortest focal length. The effect of Digic 4 at the end of 2008 is clearly visible:

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AnbuyJQ_1z6kkKocAsszPMoVBoffvQ

traveller

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2017, 05:45:53 PM »
Arguing at what focal length a fixed lens camera zoom should start at was not my original intent. Fine, if 24 is desirable, how about a 24-50 equivalent, but you can't really get 24-70 and a decent aperture (barring some new technology) without the lens becoming too large to be pocketable. So there are three options:

1) A long zoom, with a marketable fast aperture number at the short end, quickly dropping off very quickly.
2) A prime lens
3) A short, but fast zoom

Canon and everyone else has done option 1 to death. It's popular enough to keep the line iterating, but I don't think that there's any new business to be had now -you're mainly selling to upgraders.

Many have now tried option 2 and for some, it has also been a success. The issue is flexibility, you only have one focal length and the wider you go the more you have to crop if you need long (yes you can buy a teleconverter, or a wide angle converter, but these are heavy and bulky to the point that you might as well buy an ILC). Still, I wouldn't complain if Canon had one in their lineup.

Option 3 is another option for a compromise. Limit the zoom ratio to 2x (I think even 3x is pushing it), just like Sigma did with the 18-35 f/1.8 Art. Obviously, it needs to be much smaller than the Sigma, only some of which can come from the lens design freedom that a fixed lens camera can have, compare: http://j.mp/2fDs9eN. So you would still need to trade aperture somewhere to get from the camera system on the right, to closer to that on the left http://j.mp/2xj8QSg. Can it be achieved? Don't know, I'm not a lens designer or I'd be working on the problem for Canon, not writing on this forum.

My point is that it would be nice to see Canon do something different, but to do this they have to first get away from the idea that every Powershot must have a twenty-something to one hundred and something zoom, or they will only ever end up with a slow zoom design. Perhaps they could have one base body with different lens options (non-interchangeable): a conventional 24-120 equiv. zoom, a couple of primes and a couple of short fast zooms (a 24-50 equiv. & a 35-70 equiv?), maybe the ultra wide zoom compact that Nikon recently talked themselves out of producing (why limit ourselves to a 24mm wide end?).  But I know that I'm dreaming, Canon will release the same old slow zoom Powershot that they always have and they will sell it to the same customers they always have and I still won't be one of them  ;)

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2017, 05:45:53 PM »

Rocky

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2017, 11:40:21 PM »
This is a G series camera.  I think one of the requirement is "coat pocketable" and versatile. Therefore long Super zoom is out of question, fast medium zoom is out of question, may be even fast short zoom is out of question. Couple with changing from 1" to APS-C, that put a lot more restriction on the size. Therefore  I do not expect the G1 X III will have a fast lens or long zoom. As for the starting point of the lens. I personally prefer start from 24mm (equivalent) and take what ever short lele I can get with a reasonable size. The reason for 24mm starting point is based on personal experience. I used to have a 17-40mm L on 40D.  After I switched to the M,  I have a 18-55mm. There are a lot of time I feel that 18mm is not wide enough and I end up doing a lot of stitching.  After a few trips to Asia  and Europe,  I finally getting tired of stitching and brought the 11-22mm from Canada.  I have hardly doe any stitching except for 120 degree plus Panoramics. Looking back at the pictures I found out that I shot a lot of scenery using 14 to 16 focal length. Therefore 24mm (equivalent) is a good starting point for a travelling camera and whatever tele that comes with it makes it versatile.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 01:47:58 AM by Rocky »

AvTvM

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2017, 06:21:48 AM »
This is a G series camera.  I think one of the requirement is "coat pocketable" and versatile. Therefore long Super zoom is out of question, fast medium zoom is out of question, may be even fast short zoom is out of question. Couple with changing from 1" to APS-C, that put a lot more restriction on the size. Therefore  I do not expect the G1 X III will have a fast lens or long zoom. As for the starting point of the lens. I personally prefer start from 24mm (equivalent) and take what ever short lele I can get with a reasonable size. The reason for 24mm starting point is based on personal experience. I used to have a 17-40mm L on 40D.  After I switched to the M,  I have a 18-55mm. There are a lot of time I feel that 18mm is not wide enough and I end up doing a lot of stitching.  After a few trips to Asia  and Europe,  I finally getting tired of stitching and brought the 11-22mm from Canada.  I have hardly doe any stitching except for 120 degree plus Panoramics. Looking back at the pictures I found out that I shot a lot of scenery using 14 to 16 focal length. Therefore 24mm (equivalent) is a good starting point for a travelling camera and whatever tele that comes with it makes it versatile.

full ack!   8)

It is also why i prefer EOS M series over any camera without lens mount, including any Powershot. :-)

photomachine

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2017, 08:16:36 AM »
This is a G series camera.  I think one of the requirement is "coat pocketable" and versatile. Therefore long Super zoom is out of question, fast medium zoom is out of question, may be even fast short zoom is out of question. Couple with changing from 1" to APS-C, that put a lot more restriction on the size. Therefore  I do not expect the G1 X III will have a fast lens or long zoom. As for the starting point of the lens. I personally prefer start from 24mm (equivalent) and take what ever short lele I can get with a reasonable size. The reason for 24mm starting point is based on personal experience. I used to have a 17-40mm L on 40D.  After I switched to the M,  I have a 18-55mm. There are a lot of time I feel that 18mm is not wide enough and I end up doing a lot of stitching.  After a few trips to Asia  and Europe,  I finally getting tired of stitching and brought the 11-22mm from Canada.  I have hardly doe any stitching except for 120 degree plus Panoramics. Looking back at the pictures I found out that I shot a lot of scenery using 14 to 16 focal length. Therefore 24mm (equivalent) is a good starting point for a travelling camera and whatever tele that comes with it makes it versatile.

It's changing from 1.5" to APS-C not from 1"


AvTvM

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2017, 09:20:16 AM »
It's changing from 1.5" to APS-C not from 1"

correct. But 1.5" to APS-C is still a rather significant change in diameter of imaging circle.

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2017, 09:45:07 AM »
This is a G series camera.  I think one of the requirement is "coat pocketable" and versatile. Therefore long Super zoom is out of question, fast medium zoom is out of question, may be even fast short zoom is out of question.

The G1 X is already hardly pocketable. Compare it to G15:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#534,383,ha,t

It is a pure example of a compact camera, not a pocket camera. Nobody is talking about a superzoom. That would be insane.

Quote
Couple with changing from 1" to APS-C, that put a lot more restriction on the size. Therefore  I do not expect the G1 X III will have a fast lens or long zoom. As for the starting point of the lens. I personally prefer start from 24mm (equivalent) and take what ever short lele I can get with a reasonable size.

First G1 X is not an one inch sensor. The sensor crop ratio is about 1.85 though the way it is used creates a crop ratio of 1.95. What you describe is basically what it already has.


traveller

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2017, 02:02:54 PM »
This is a G series camera.  I think one of the requirement is "coat pocketable" and versatile. Therefore long Super zoom is out of question, fast medium zoom is out of question, may be even fast short zoom is out of question.

The G1 X is already hardly pocketable. Compare it to G15:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#534,383,ha,t

It is a pure example of a compact camera, not a pocket camera. Nobody is talking about a superzoom. That would be insane.

Nonsense. Of course you can fit a G1XII in a coat pocket, (not your jeans pocket -your down to Sony RX100 size for that requirement) how else are do you carry the camera about? Oh, don't tell me -you use one of those straps with "Canon Powershot" written on it? I bet you think that this looks cool!  ;)



Lots of people fit the Fuji X100 series or the EOS-M with the EF-M 22mm f/2 in their pocket, so why shouldn't the G1XII fit? http://camerasize.com/compact/#534,599.349,383,705,ha,t

Couple with changing from 1" to APS-C, that put a lot more restriction on the size. Therefore  I do not expect the G1 X III will have a fast lens or long zoom. As for the starting point of the lens. I personally prefer start from 24mm (equivalent) and take what ever short lele I can get with a reasonable size.

First G1 X is not an one inch sensor. The sensor crop ratio is about 1.85 though the way it is used creates a crop ratio of 1.95. What you describe is basically what it already has.

There is no difference between a fixed lens camera with a 1" sensor with a 8.8-36.8mm f/1.8-2.8 zoom (e.g. the G5X) and one with an (Canon) APS-C sensor with a 15-62mm f/3.1-4.8 zoom or a full frame fixed lens camera with a 24-100mm f/4.9-7.6 zoom. They will all have exactly the same field-of-view range, capture exactly the same amount of light and have exactly the same depth of field control. They will also probably be exactly the same size. The only advantage would be if the 1" sensor and lens combo was cheaper than the APS-C or full-frame versions.

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2017, 02:02:54 PM »

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2017, 02:34:41 PM »

Nonsense. Of course you can fit a G1XII in a coat pocket, (not your jeans pocket -your down to Sony RX100 size for that requirement) how else are do you carry the camera about? Oh, don't tell me -you use one of those straps with "Canon Powershot" written on it? I bet you think that this looks cool!  ;)



Lots of people fit the Fuji X100 series or the EOS-M with the EF-M 22mm f/2 in their pocket, so why shouldn't the G1XII fit? http://camerasize.com/compact/#534,599.349,383,705,ha,t

Sure yiou can fit but I do not think a camera weighting over half a kilo is comfortable in a pocket. The G1 X II is much heavier than EOS M with the prime.

Quote
There is no difference between a fixed lens camera with a 1" sensor with a 8.8-36.8mm f/1.8-2.8 zoom (e.g. the G5X) and one with an (Canon) APS-C sensor with a 15-62mm f/3.1-4.8 zoom or a full frame fixed lens camera with a 24-100mm f/4.9-7.6 zoom. They will all have exactly the same field-of-view range, capture exactly the same amount of light and have exactly the same depth of field control. They will also probably be exactly the same size. The only advantage would be if the 1" sensor and lens combo was cheaper than the APS-C or full-frame versions.

True, but the G1 X is already f/2.0-3.9 with 1.95 crop.  That s effectively 2/3 stops faster than the G5 X.

traveller

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2017, 04:39:52 PM »

There is no difference between a fixed lens camera with a 1" sensor with a 8.8-36.8mm f/1.8-2.8 zoom (e.g. the G5X) and one with an (Canon) APS-C sensor with a 15-62mm f/3.1-4.8 zoom or a full frame fixed lens camera with a 24-100mm f/4.9-7.6 zoom. They will all have exactly the same field-of-view range, capture exactly the same amount of light and have exactly the same depth of field control. They will also probably be exactly the same size. The only advantage would be if the 1" sensor and lens combo was cheaper than the APS-C or full-frame versions.

True, but the G1 X is already f/2.0-3.9 with 1.95 crop.  That s effectively 2/3 stops faster than the G5 X.

Only at 24mm equivalent. Beyond that, things aren't so clear cut: https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/0226934452/Equiv_Ap.png

P.S. Note how superior the much overlooked LX100 lens is on this chart -this is currently the only zoom lens compact that has tempted me...

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2017, 04:39:52 PM »