October 23, 2017, 10:51:52 PM

Author Topic: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]  (Read 8901 times)

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 09:15:08 AM »

So slow a lens would make no sense. Currently G1 XII 6.25 mm aperture at 24 mm equiv. G7 X II has 4.9 mm. The EF-M 15-45 mm has 4.3 mm. Choosing f/3.5 would mean one stop loss compared to mark II. It has to be better than f/2.8, ideally f/2.0. There are extra freedoms in making a lens for a compact camera as one has not to worry about distortions. They are fixed with software. 
...

Even then I don't think a 15-45 / 16-50 / 18-55 zoom lens for APS-C with f/2.8 could be made small enough for a G1X type camera. Even less so with f/2.0 or greater focal range.

Then they should make it bigger. It makes no sense to make a camera twice the weight of G7 X without it significantly outperforming it. G7 X has APS C equivalence of f/3.0-4.7. G1 X II has f/2.4-4.6. They would need to get to the f/2.5-4.5 range at minimum for it to make sense.

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 09:15:08 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 11:00:47 AM »
60p 4K and 120p 1080p would be really useful...

LOL.
for you maybe.. for the rest of the world, not so much.

it's not going to have 4K.

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 11:03:40 AM »

Even then I don't think a 15-45 / 16-50 / 18-55 zoom lens for APS-C with f/2.8 could be made small enough for a G1X type camera. Even less so with f/2.0 or greater focal range.

the 15-43 2-4 patent looked like it could be small enough, but it's also a matter of weight.

however if it's a 24-120mm - it's going to be slow, it has to be.  that's around the 15-85mm size of lens.  even the M 18-55 is too big when you think about it, and it gets to around 10mm to the front of the sensor.


« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 11:13:16 AM by rrcphoto »

transpo1

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 02:15:00 PM »
60p 4K and 120p 1080p would be really useful...

LOL.
for you maybe.. for the rest of the world, not so much.

it's not going to have 4K.

LOL- speak for yourself. Despite those on this forum who are disinterested in 4K, one of the biggest consumer electronics companies in the world just released a 4K TV product. Knowing Canon's conservative mindset, this camera probably won't have 4K, but it's a shame because myself and many other Canon fans will not buy it and it will not be future proof. For me, it will be DOA.


rrcphoto

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2017, 02:23:02 PM »
60p 4K and 120p 1080p would be really useful...

LOL.
for you maybe.. for the rest of the world, not so much.

it's not going to have 4K.

LOL- speak for yourself. Despite those on this forum who are disinterested in 4K, one of the biggest consumer electronics companies in the world just released a 4K TV product.

ahhh so?

what does that have to do with a compact aps-c camera? nothing.

it won't it.  no current generation asp-c has it.  this won't.  it's common sense, versus continually whining.

Get over yourself and 4k.  go get a 4k camera and just. leave.  there's lots out there. if 4K was so important to you, why don't you move and have one already?  since you haven't. and you stick around here all the time, it's obviously not that important to you and you just like to sound important.

and if you think apple is one of the largest electronic consumer companies in the world you really need the brain cells to be firing a little faster.  Consumer electronics are more than just smartphones.  FYI.  and apple TV? important? oh please.

and this is a compact camera for photographers. not for 4k wannabe's.


« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 02:30:39 PM by rrcphoto »

traveller

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2017, 02:27:32 PM »

Even then I don't think a 15-45 / 16-50 / 18-55 zoom lens for APS-C with f/2.8 could be made small enough for a G1X type camera. Even less so with f/2.0 or greater focal range.

the 15-43 2-4 patent looked like it could be small enough, but it's also a matter of weight.

however if it's a 24-120mm - it's going to be slow, it has to be.  that's around the 15-85mm size of lens.  even the M 18-55 is too big when you think about it, and it gets to around 10mm to the front of the sensor.

I'd like to see 22-44mm f/2.8 -ideal for a pocket street camera (for me anyway).  I can understand other preferring something wider, e.g. 15-30mm, but you'd then have to trade off anything beyond normal to keep an f/2.8 lens pocketable.

It ain't going to happen, because Canon believes most users want at least a 5x zoom on a fixed lens compact and they are probably correct!

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2017, 02:31:19 PM »

Even then I don't think a 15-45 / 16-50 / 18-55 zoom lens for APS-C with f/2.8 could be made small enough for a G1X type camera. Even less so with f/2.0 or greater focal range.

the 15-43 2-4 patent looked like it could be small enough, but it's also a matter of weight.

however if it's a 24-120mm - it's going to be slow, it has to be.  that's around the 15-85mm size of lens.  even the M 18-55 is too big when you think about it, and it gets to around 10mm to the front of the sensor.

I'd like to see 22-44mm f/2.8 -ideal for a pocket street camera (for me anyway).  I can understand other preferring something wider, e.g. 15-30mm, but you'd then have to trade off anything beyond normal to keep an f/2.8 lens pocketable.

It ain't going to happen, because Canon believes most users want at least a 5x zoom on a fixed lens compact and they are probably correct!

do you mean 22-44 normal focal adjusted for crop factor?

15-43 is around 24-75mm including crop factor.

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2017, 02:31:19 PM »

transpo1

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2017, 04:49:09 PM »
60p 4K and 120p 1080p would be really useful...

LOL.
for you maybe.. for the rest of the world, not so much.

it's not going to have 4K.

LOL- speak for yourself. Despite those on this forum who are disinterested in 4K, one of the biggest consumer electronics companies in the world just released a 4K TV product.

ahhh so?

what does that have to do with a compact aps-c camera? nothing.

it won't it.  no current generation asp-c has it.  this won't.  it's common sense, versus continually whining.

Get over yourself and 4k.  go get a 4k camera and just. leave.  there's lots out there. if 4K was so important to you, why don't you move and have one already?  since you haven't. and you stick around here all the time, it's obviously not that important to you and you just like to sound important.

and if you think apple is one of the largest electronic consumer companies in the world you really need the brain cells to be firing a little faster.  Consumer electronics are more than just smartphones.  FYI.  and apple TV? important? oh please.

and this is a compact camera for photographers. not for 4k wannabe's.

Nice response. I'll let your vehemence speak for itself. There's a lot of people who are threatened by video, since it's starting to explode on the web. We can let everyone else decide whether Apple, Netflix, and YouTube supporting 4K are important.

I could say the same and ask you to just leave, but I won't because: it's going to be extremely funny to see you change course and extoll the virtues of 4K once Canon starts to include it in their cameras.

privatebydesign

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2017, 05:05:26 PM »
There's a lot of people who are threatened by video, since it's starting to explode on the web. We can let everyone else decide whether Apple, Netflix, and YouTube supporting 4K are important.

4k is great, trouble is web based 4k isn't anywhere mature enough to offer any kind of service at all to the vast majority of people, it just isn't. So we have the cameras that can shoot it, we have the content providers who are happy to push it, we have the TV manufacturers who are so ready for it they practically won't let you buy anything else.

We still don't have the computers to process our own 4k footage in anything like a timely manner and we still don't have a nationwide bandwidth capacity to stream it. It will get ever more popular, but it will be hamstrung for many years or we rely on compression codecs that leave us with footage not much better than good quality 1080.

Don't get me wrong, it is inevitable and will be in and on everything, I have DSLR's capable of filming slow motion DCI 4k, I have a 75" 4k TV, I like 4k. But dealing with the file sizes is not going to allow the universal breakthrough other technologies have enjoyed.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2017, 05:43:09 PM »
and if you think apple is one of the largest electronic consumer companies in the world you really need the brain cells to be firing a little faster.  Consumer electronics are more than just smartphones.  FYI.  and apple TV? important? oh please.

Apple is a consumer electronics company.  Apple is the 9th largest company in the world by revenue, and it's the largest company in the world by market cap.

So if you think Apple is not one of the largest consumer electronics companies in the world, your brain cells are apparently not firing at all.   :o
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traveller

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2017, 07:41:12 PM »

Even then I don't think a 15-45 / 16-50 / 18-55 zoom lens for APS-C with f/2.8 could be made small enough for a G1X type camera. Even less so with f/2.0 or greater focal range.

the 15-43 2-4 patent looked like it could be small enough, but it's also a matter of weight.

however if it's a 24-120mm - it's going to be slow, it has to be.  that's around the 15-85mm size of lens.  even the M 18-55 is too big when you think about it, and it gets to around 10mm to the front of the sensor.

I'd like to see 22-44mm f/2.8 -ideal for a pocket street camera (for me anyway).  I can understand other preferring something wider, e.g. 15-30mm, but you'd then have to trade off anything beyond normal to keep an f/2.8 lens pocketable.

It ain't going to happen, because Canon believes most users want at least a 5x zoom on a fixed lens compact and they are probably correct!

do you mean 22-44 normal focal adjusted for crop factor?

15-43 is around 24-75mm including crop factor.

No, I really meant 22-44mm, i.e. equivalent to a 35-70mm on 35mm sensors/film. Like I wrote before, some would like wider, but I prefer to have a short tele option that can give an option for some perspective compression. You ain't gonna get that with a 24mm equivalent wide end, unless you go quite a bit slower (like f/4) bigger, or accept much lower image quality. Again, this is what I would like to have, not what I think Canon will produce.

asl

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2017, 05:26:09 AM »
60p 4K and 120p 1080p would be really useful...

Off course it would, but not gonna happen.
Maybe the 90d gets 4K or 7d..

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 06:00:11 AM »
No, I really meant 22-44mm, i.e. equivalent to a 35-70mm on 35mm sensors/film. Like I wrote before, some would like wider, but I prefer to have a short tele option that can give an option for some perspective compression. You ain't gonna get that with a 24mm equivalent wide end, unless you go quite a bit slower (like f/4) bigger, or accept much lower image quality. Again, this is what I would like to have, not what I think Canon will produce.

Before Digic 4 it was common that compact cameras had zooms that started from 35 mm. Now that would be considered way too narrow. There is no problem in making better lenses. Before the introduction of Digic 4 7 % of Canon compacts had a wide angle (28 or wider) lens, since introduction (to the end of 2015) it was 84 % and from 2011 all.

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 06:00:11 AM »

traveller

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 06:40:46 PM »
No, I really meant 22-44mm, i.e. equivalent to a 35-70mm on 35mm sensors/film. Like I wrote before, some would like wider, but I prefer to have a short tele option that can give an option for some perspective compression. You ain't gonna get that with a 24mm equivalent wide end, unless you go quite a bit slower (like f/4) bigger, or accept much lower image quality. Again, this is what I would like to have, not what I think Canon will produce.

Before Digic 4 it was common that compact cameras had zooms that started from 35 mm. Now that would be considered way too narrow. There is no problem in making better lenses. Before the introduction of Digic 4 7 % of Canon compacts had a wide angle (28 or wider) lens, since introduction (to the end of 2015) it was 84 % and from 2011 all.

Are you suggesting that by the Digic 4 generation, processing power had increased enough to permit software distortion corrections to under-designed lenses? This possibly is one factor in the emergence of wider lenses, but you should also note that at that time, the long end started getting longer too. It's the talking dog scenario: the first time you see one (i.e. bought a digital camera), it didn't matter what the dog said but the fact that it could speak at all. Once the digital compact camera market became commoditised (and eventually eroded by the growth of smartphones), the camera makers were forced to look for new ways to distinguish their products.

To return to the original point, (what is left of) consumer digital cameras in the current market tend to have very large zoom ratios, as they are catering for the 'must cover every scenario' superzoom fallacy that the camera makers find it easy to sell to the casual buyer. Enthusiast compact cameras on the other hand, tend to have larger sensors coupled with smaller zoom ratio (or prime) lenses of larger aperture, as they are bought by people who have a more specific idea of what they want the camera to do (pocketable, discreet, fast, up-close, low-light and depth of field control  are the more likely action words). My idea for a 22-44mm (i.e. 35-70 equiv.) with a fast aperture is to bridge the gap between the prime lens enthusiast cameras (Fuji X100 & 80, Ricoh GRII, Nikon Coolpix A) and the 3-5x zooms of moderate fast aperture. To be honest, perhaps my target of f/2.8 was too modest, but I was trying to go for a constant aperture design: some might prefer 22-44mm f/2-2.8 and I can understand their reasons too. A constant f/2 lens would be ideal, but I think that this would probably be trading off too much, either in terms of pocketability, or image quality.

At the end of the day, there's always the tradeoff with all lens designs: coverage (sensor size), aperture, zoom ratio, size, cost, image quality must all be balanced. Far too often the outcome is slow, cheap, high zoom ratio lenses that appeal to a mass market, but actually often serve them poorly. Why does this happen? Probably because the benefits of a huge zoom range are easier to explain in a sound bite than the benefits of a wide aperture.

okaro

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2017, 04:39:46 AM »


Are you suggesting that by the Digic 4 generation, processing power had increased enough to permit software distortion corrections to under-designed lenses?

Yes, it is important t note that the correction is done in real time. This makes it mostly invisible to the user especially as most cameras do not give out raw images. I found it out with CHDK. If the camera has a CCD sensor one can see it by pointing the camera to a lamp. This produces s straight line on the sensor. The correction causes it to be concave at the edges. One can also record it on video (but on on still images)

Quote
This possibly is one factor in the emergence of wider lenses, but you should also note that at that time, the long end started getting longer too. It's the talking dog scenario: the first time you see one (i.e. bought a digital camera), it didn't matter what the dog said but the fact that it could speak at all. Once the digital compact camera market became commoditised (and eventually eroded by the growth of smartphones), the camera makers were forced to look for new ways to distinguish their products.

Dedicated superzoom cameras (SX-series and before that S-series) had a trend of increasing zoom but in basic cameras like Ixus the lengthening began only later in 2013 as a result of decreasing sales and competition with smart phones. At the same time they went back to CCD to cut costs. On the G-series they actually went back in Zoom. G9 was 35-210 and G10 28-140. G9 was Digic III and G10 Digic 4.

Quote
To return to the original point, (what is left of) consumer digital cameras in the current market tend to have very large zoom ratios, as they are catering for the 'must cover every scenario' superzoom fallacy that the camera makers find it easy to sell to the casual buyer. Enthusiast compact cameras on the other hand, tend to have larger sensors coupled with smaller zoom ratio (or prime) lenses of larger aperture, as they are bought by people who have a more specific idea of what they want the camera to do (pocketable, discreet, fast, up-close, low-light and depth of field control  are the more likely action words). My idea for a 22-44mm (i.e. 35-70 equiv.) with a fast aperture is to bridge the gap between the prime lens enthusiast cameras (Fuji X100 & 80, Ricoh GRII, Nikon Coolpix A) and the 3-5x zooms of moderate fast aperture. To be honest, perhaps my target of f/2.8 was too modest, but I was trying to go for a constant aperture design: some might prefer 22-44mm f/2-2.8 and I can understand their reasons too. A constant f/2 lens would be ideal, but I think that this would probably be trading off too much, either in terms of pocketability, or image quality.

The point is that 35 mm is way too narrow if you make a zoom. SRLs used  to be shipped in 50 mm and then they went to 35-70 as that gave extra on both directions. Cameras like Fuji X100 already have 35 mm so you cannot compete with them with 35-70. It offers too little extra. The fact that you prefer 35 mm is no reason to start with that. A fixed lens camera needs to be versatile.

It would be little effort to modify the current lens to APS-C which would give f/2.5-4.8. People want wide angle. When S120 -> G9 X switch went from 24 mm to 28 mm people complained.

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Re: Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark III Coming Mid October [CR3]
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2017, 04:39:46 AM »