December 14, 2017, 01:34:22 AM

Author Topic: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance  (Read 28138 times)

Orangutan

  • EOS-1D X Mark II
  • *******
  • Posts: 1898
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 12:08:17 AM »
DR is a BIG DEAL.
Apparently it isn't such a big deal as you think.

Quote
because our eyes can see 20 stops of DR!!!
Sony sensors are still >6 short of that, so you still need multiple image capture.

Quote
12 stops is simply not good enough in 2017.
We all want more DR, I certainly do.  Better tech costs money, and may affect other characteristics of the sensor.

Quote
Whoever says DR is not a big deal never converted a raw file.
I don't think anyone says that, I think many say that it's one factor among many, and does not often make the difference between a photo worth keeping and one that goes into the trash.


Quote
In 2017!? WTF Canon!?
OK, you won't buy one.  Now what?  What do you want us to do, shower you with praise for enlightening us?  We are entirely capable of making our own decisions about which gear to buy and how to use it.

Quote
I'm a loyal and very disappointed Canon shooter.
Forget your loyalty, just buy the kit that works for you and be done with it.


canon rumors FORUM

Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 12:08:17 AM »


privatebydesign

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 6592
  • Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 12:49:44 AM »
DR is a BIG DEAL. It is a big deal because our eyes can see 20 stops of DR!!! A state-of-the-art DR of 14-15 (by Sony) still blows! Every stop counts. 12 stops is simply not good enough in 2017.

No they can't, not in static pupil situations.

Best estimates put static pupil human dynamic range in the 10-14 stop range, if a scene has more DR within it the eye changes aperture so fast we can't tell, but we can't see both the light and dark areas at the same time. We can view scenes with well over 20 stops of DR in them, but only by adjusting exposure for one area at a time.

It always amazes me how close the average static pupil range is to actual camera range, hmmm, wonder why?  ::)
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

Talys

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
  • Canon 6DII
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2017, 01:02:22 AM »
6D2 vs 5D4 vs 5D3:

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-6D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-IV-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III___1170_1106_795

This pretty much nails why some folks really dislike the 6DMkII -- And Canon. 

Their expectation was that the 6DMkII be at least as good as, if not better than, the 5DMkIV, for less money.  Just like with computers, everything should get much cheaper and much better every single year and with every release.  If that doesn't happen, it's because the manufacturer is purposely holding back to rip you off.  But anyways, if 6DII did, this would be a sign of desperation.

Personally, I think the 6DII is positioned just right.  It's "cheap" as far as full frame cameras go, and has a lot of good stuff, but is a little behind the 5DMkIV (which only came out at the end of last year...)  in some things that matter more, and in some things that matter less.  If you want a 5DMkIV... buy a 5DMkIV :D

The reasons for choosing the 6DII really are the same reasons to choose (or not choose) Canon -- lens selection, which will far outlive camera bodies; OVF vs mirrorless; reliability, usability and ergonomics; and massive selection of third party accessories that spans the entire range of quality and price.  The reason for most people to choose a 6DII over a 5DIV is obvious.... price.

If Canon ever wants me to desire a higher priced camera, though, they will need to add a fully articulating screen to it.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 01:13:02 AM by Talys »

sanj

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2916
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2017, 01:11:17 AM »
Reminder to everyone about to throw a fit because something is better/worse/exactly what they thought it would be:

- Look at the total measurements for the whole range of the camera, not just the overall score or the 'best case scenario' scores.
- Colour depth really does not matter.
- ISO sensitivity matters a lot, yet is hardly ever brought up by anyone.
- The processor makes almost as much difference as the sensor, so don't talk about just the sensor as if it's the only thing which matters.
- 99% of the time absolutely any camera made in the last ~10 years will end up giving you essentially the same results, with only a few specific, specialised purposes really demanding more from any one aspect of the body.
- If you really care about getting the cleanest images and the most dynamic range, you'd probably already be used to compensating with image averaging, HDR, and other similar techniques.

 
With that in mind, the only part of the 6D2's measurements which is at all surprising is how low the true sensitivity is. ISO 100 is actually 63 and ISO 200 is actually 127. That's a record-low for Canon, and I believe a record-low for any SLR. That means that using like-for-like settings, the 6D2 underexposes by nearly two thirds of a stop. [Is this a fact? Can you prove it?] To compensate and get the same exposure you'll need to either use a faster lens/open up (potentially dropping in sharpness and increasing vignetting), lower your shutter speed (yay motion blur) or raise the ISO (more noise and less exposure latitude to play with).

That's a huge problem. Yes, the 80D also severely overrates its ISO, but that wasn't quite this bad. Yes, Fuji do it too, but again, not by this much. Nikon and Sony haven't, as far as I'm aware, ever fudged their ISO sensitivity by any more than half a stop. (Though even half a stop is too much to get away with, in my view.)

This means that, if we assume you don't want to change your aperture or shutter settings and only raise the ISO to compensate for the 6D2's low sensitivity, you won't really get any cleaner images than you would with a 5D mark 2 at a 1:1 pixel level. At 1:1, the 6D2 is only 1/3rd of a stop cleaner... but it shoots 1/3rd of a stop darker. So if you have to raise the ISO by a third of a stop anyway, you end up at the exact same place.
Now, the 6D2 does of course have slightly higher resolution, which helps it along. It has about 2/3rd of a stop lead when the 5D2 and 6D2 files are scaled equally, which after compensation, would still leave it 1/3rd of a stop cleaner. But 1/3rd of a stop after 9 years is pretty awful.

Not only that but if you throw in a 5D3, which is also 1/3rd of a stop cleaner once the images have been equalised, you're matching the 6D2. Now, that 5D3/6D2 image quality is far more than good enough for most uses (so is the 5D2's, really), but that's still very poor considering the time between releases and also the price of a second hand 5D2 or 3 vs a brand new 6D2.

Dynamic range is the exact same deal, although the 5D2 actually leads very slightly at the lower ISO settings. The 6D2 matches them in range but not in exposure, so once you've increased sensitivity of the 6D2 to match the 5D2/3, it's fallen behind them. And again, the higher pixel count helps when you compare the equalised measurements, but not enough to actually put it ahead. The only variance is at ISO 3200 and above, where the 5D2 drops off sharply. (The 5D3 remains very slightly ahead of the 6D2 once you compensate for the 6D2's lower-than-advertised sensitivity.)

For people who want long exposures matching the lower ISO settings of other cameras which Canon usually lacks (e.g. Nikon usually has a ISO 64 setting which isn't just ISO 100 pulled down, like it is with Canon's extended range ISO) settings, you could see this as a benefit; buy a 6D2 and set it to ISO 100 and you're essentially at 64. But if you're not one of those few people trying to get the absolute longest shutter you possibly can, this is a big problem.

 
TL;DR version: What you're looking at with the 6D2's fundamental image quality is a 5D2 with more potential for cropping, assuming you want your final images to also be of the same brightness. The 6D2 is only better than the 5D2 if you open up the lens or shutter by half a stop or so and do not crop (or any other action which would throw away pixels) so the higher resolution can work in the 6D2's favour once you've scaled the image down or printed it at its final viewing size.

Again, if any of that bothers you, re-read the very first part of my post. Also consider that the 6D2 has far better functionality over the older 5D2 and 3. Considering how most photos these days end up only being seen printed at relatively small sizes or scaled down to fit Instagram, I'd say the 6D2's technical image quality is more than good enough for most people and the functionality is far more important. The few people who do genuinely need better IQ (for huge printing/viewing, very heavy cropping, industry catalogue work, legitimate fine art, etc) likely already have better. (That kind of person is unlikely to have even considered a 6D2 in the first place, as they're more likely to be shooting with medium format, already have a 5DSR, etc). I highly doubt a single person who buys a 6D2 today would be bothered by the image quality in terms of the final viewed image.

The 6D line is a 'prosumer' line meant to satisfy the richer hobbiests as a primary all-round camera, or fill in nicely enough as a back-up for professionals. In that regard, the 6D2 seems to do fine. It's horrible that Canon is flat-out lying about the ISO settings, and they should be taken to task for that, but in terms of the end results it can be compensated for easily enough, and the other features of the camera make it more than worthwhile for the kinds of user it is aimed at.

Talys

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
  • Canon 6DII
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2017, 02:30:52 AM »
With that in mind, the only part of the 6D2's measurements which is at all surprising is how low the true sensitivity is. ISO 100 is actually 63 and ISO 200 is actually 127. That's a record-low for Canon, and I believe a record-low for any SLR. That means that using like-for-like settings, the 6D2 underexposes by nearly two thirds of a stop. [Is this a fact? Can you prove it?] To compensate and get the same exposure you'll need to either use a faster lens/open up (potentially dropping in sharpness and increasing vignetting), lower your shutter speed (yay motion blur) or raise the ISO (more noise and less exposure latitude to play with).

That's a huge problem. Yes, the 80D also severely overrates its ISO, but that wasn't quite this bad. Yes, Fuji do it too, but again, not by this much. Nikon and Sony haven't, as far as I'm aware, ever fudged their ISO sensitivity by any more than half a stop. (Though even half a stop is too much to get away with, in my view.)

No, this is not a fact.  It is horse poop.  If the 6DII is severely overrated... or whatever... so is the 80D and 60D, and some older xxxD Canon bodies, all to approximately the same degree, because I take photos of the same subject from different angles using the same exposure settings all the time with these cameras.  I rely on that.

Also, so too must my Sekonic flash meter, because when I'm using a whole bunch of strobes and/or speedlites, especially when it's a new lighting setup, I'll usually take a reading with Sekonic, and it's pretty damned close.

But anyways, here is proof.  Using exactly the same tripod location and lighting, I took 2 pictures of a ColorChecker, on the left with an 80D and on the right a 6D Mark II, both at 1/320 ISO 100.  Don't mind pixel peeping sharpness, because I just used the shutter button autofocus and took a single shot; that wasn't the point.  The point is, both are identically exposed, or at least close enough not to matter.  Certainly not by some massive ISO difference


Full resolution: http://talys.icxi.com/cr/20170919/6D2_80D_ISO_Compare.jpg

Edit -- no idea why attachments never work for me :)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 02:44:34 AM by Talys »

jester73

  • PowerShot G7 X Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 6
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 02:59:28 AM »

But anyways, here is proof.  Using exactly the same tripod location and lighting, I took 2 pictures of a ColorChecker, on the left with an 80D and on the right a 6D Mark II, both at 1/320 ISO 100.  Don't mind pixel peeping sharpness, because I just used the shutter button autofocus and took a single shot; that wasn't the point.  The point is, both are identically exposed, or at least close enough not to matter.  Certainly not by some massive ISO difference


Full resolution: http://talys.icxi.com/cr/20170919/6D2_80D_ISO_Compare.jpg

Edit -- no idea why attachments never work for me :)
For me 6dII image is visibly darker.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 02:59:28 AM »

Jack Douglas

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4651
  • http://www.gohaidagwaii.ca/blog/eagle-photography-
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2017, 03:07:33 AM »
Not sure if it's too significant but I agree it's darker.  I'm guessing maybe 1/3 stop.

Jack
1DX2   11-24 F4   24-70 F4   70-200 F2.8 II   300 F2.8 II   1.4X III   2X III   400 DO F4 II 

http://yourshot.nationalgeographic.com/profile/647784/

Talys

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
  • Canon 6DII
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2017, 03:09:21 AM »
For me 6dII image is visibly darker.

Obviously, the sensors are different, and I agree, the 6DII looks a little darker on areas like the ridged plastic.  However, the trick is to evaluating exposure differences (certainly by two thirds of a stop...) is to look at the grey in the back.  There is no way the grey between the two is different by 2/3 of a stop, or anything close to that.

Just take either half in the source file, and change it by 2/3, and look at how different the grey looks.

Not sure if it's too significant but I agree it's darker.  I'm guessing maybe 1/3 stop.

Jack

Good eye -- chimping it in Lightroom, at about +.29, they grey levels are very close.

By the way, the 1/320 2.8 @ISO 100 is the exposure setting from the Sekonic.  And ugh, I just noticed, I had profile corrections turned on during imports, which slightly changes it.

However, I stand by my original statement... it's nowhere close to a 2/3EV difference, or a difference between ISO 127 and ISO 200.  I mean, for heavens sake, that would require nearly double the exposure between the two cameras to get the same results.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 03:28:49 AM by Talys »

Don Haines

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 6298
  • posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2017, 03:25:03 AM »
It is a big deal because our eyes can see 20 stops of DR!!!

Yes, the eye can detect 20 stops of DR.... but only 12 stops at the same time. The eye needs time to adjust..... this is why when you head outside at night you have to wait several minutes for the iris (aperture) to adjust and you can see the faint details....

Using the same logic, the 6D2 can see 12 stops of DR at the same time, but by adjusting the aperture of my lens between F1.4 to F22, I get an additional 8 stops of range that I can shift my 12 stop window over.....
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 03:28:26 AM by Don Haines »
The best camera is the one in your hands

Talys

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 591
  • Canon 6DII
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2017, 03:36:18 AM »
It is a big deal because our eyes can see 20 stops of DR!!!

Yes, the eye can detect 20 stops of DR.... but only 12 stops at the same time. The eye needs time to adjust..... this is why when you head outside at night you have to wait several minutes for the iris (aperture) to adjust and you can see the faint details....

Using the same logic, the 6D2 can see 12 stops of DR at the same time, but by adjusting the aperture of my lens between F1.4 to F22, I get an additional 8 stops of range that I can shift my 12 stop window over.....

I think that the main reason that most people want more DR is so that they can take a picture that looks like a shadowy block with the sun behind the subject, and then, CSI-style, make actual colors magically appear.  Look!  Something from nothing!

The problem is, the end result is still a crappy picture that isn't properly illuminated.  So actually, it's still nothing  :o   

Another better reason (among the likely, serious ones for people in the market for a 6DII), I guess, would be to more easily capture more near-whites.  Personally, I always know if what I'm going to photograph is going to have too much bright whites, and I just knock it down a little, or you could use the white priority mode, but I guess it's legitimate to say, "but I don't have to do that if I have more DR".

« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 03:44:07 AM by Talys »

dlee13

  • EOS Rebel T7i
  • ****
  • Posts: 145
    • My Website
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2017, 04:18:09 AM »
With that in mind, the only part of the 6D2's measurements which is at all surprising is how low the true sensitivity is. ISO 100 is actually 63 and ISO 200 is actually 127. That's a record-low for Canon, and I believe a record-low for any SLR. That means that using like-for-like settings, the 6D2 underexposes by nearly two thirds of a stop. [Is this a fact? Can you prove it?] To compensate and get the same exposure you'll need to either use a faster lens/open up (potentially dropping in sharpness and increasing vignetting), lower your shutter speed (yay motion blur) or raise the ISO (more noise and less exposure latitude to play with).

That's a huge problem. Yes, the 80D also severely overrates its ISO, but that wasn't quite this bad. Yes, Fuji do it too, but again, not by this much. Nikon and Sony haven't, as far as I'm aware, ever fudged their ISO sensitivity by any more than half a stop. (Though even half a stop is too much to get away with, in my view.)

No, this is not a fact.  It is horse poop.  If the 6DII is severely overrated... or whatever... so is the 80D and 60D, and some older xxxD Canon bodies, all to approximately the same degree, because I take photos of the same subject from different angles using the same exposure settings all the time with these cameras.  I rely on that.

Also, so too must my Sekonic flash meter, because when I'm using a whole bunch of strobes and/or speedlites, especially when it's a new lighting setup, I'll usually take a reading with Sekonic, and it's pretty damned close.

But anyways, here is proof.  Using exactly the same tripod location and lighting, I took 2 pictures of a ColorChecker, on the left with an 80D and on the right a 6D Mark II, both at 1/320 ISO 100.  Don't mind pixel peeping sharpness, because I just used the shutter button autofocus and took a single shot; that wasn't the point.  The point is, both are identically exposed, or at least close enough not to matter.  Certainly not by some massive ISO difference


Full resolution: http://talys.icxi.com/cr/20170919/6D2_80D_ISO_Compare.jpg

Edit -- no idea why attachments never work for me :)

May just be me but I feel the colors are slight more saturated on the 6DII images and it has a deeper color too it. Could also explain why it appears darker.
6D - Canon EF 35mm f2 IS - Sigma 85mm f1.4 EX DG HSM - Canon 100mm f2.8L IS - Canon 17-40mm f4L

AlanF

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3176
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 04:28:54 AM »

I think that the main reason that most people want more DR is so that they can take a picture that looks like a shadowy block with the sun behind the subject, and then, CSI-style, make actual colors magically appear.  Look!  Something from nothing!

The problem is, the end result is still a crappy picture that isn't properly illuminated.  So actually, it's still nothing  :o   


A common example from your hobby of bird photography is when you take a photo of a bird in flight illuminated from the sun above; the top is often perfectly illuminated and the underneath in shadow. It can be nice to lighten the shadows below, which you can do without spoiling the correctly illuminated parts using PS. Your eyes can see the details underneath when your camera can't in one take. The same reasoning applies to other scenes.
5D IV, 5DS R, 400mm DO II, 1.4xTC III, 2xTC III, EF 1.8 STM,  EF 24-105, 100-400 II, EF-S 15-85, Sigma 150-600mm C, EOS-M5 15-45, f/2 22, 11-22, Samyang 8mm f/2.8 fisheye: sold 7D II, EOS-M, Powershot G3 X,  Sigma 10-20, EF 300/2.8 II, 70-200/4 IS.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 04:28:54 AM »

tomscott

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 1076
  • Photographer & Graphic Designer
    • Tom Scott | Photography
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 04:40:51 AM »
As ive said many times, it beats the 5DMKIII in every IQ metric and is £500 cheaper and £1500 cheaper than a 5DMKIV.

Its a relative bargain in the Canon line up. Ive been over the moon with mine.

For people who say its a poor camera... The 5DMKIII was one of the best Canon has ever made... with only a couple of shortcomings... namely the banding and muddy purple shadows. 6DMKII has neither.

If people are really honest with themselves how often do you stick to ISO100. I barely ever shoot that low the cameras are so capable I would rather have better quality high up and this has it in spades.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 05:40:31 AM by tomscott »
6D MKII, 5D MKIII STOLEN, 7D MKII 70D 17-55mm F2.8 16-35mm F2.8 II L 24-70mm F2.8 L 24-105mm F4 L 70-200mm F2.8 II L 100-400mm F4.5-5.6 II L 2x II 1.4X III 580EX

SecureGSM

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 742
Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2017, 05:39:16 AM »
Hi Jack,

It is and by 1/3 of a stop.

but... 80D image is upscaled and 6D II image is not. when upscaled, brightness certainly is changed and is no longer representative of  the original unmodified image. we should compare original images at it's native resolution instead.



Not sure if it's too significant but I agree it's darker.  I'm guessing maybe 1/3 stop.

Jack

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2017, 05:39:16 AM »