October 20, 2017, 08:59:47 AM

Author Topic: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance  (Read 19175 times)

cpsico

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2017, 01:27:58 PM »
The original 6d is from a pure IQ standpoint better. AF was never a problem for portraits, dual card slots and lack of a pic port were. Skip this camera and save up for a 5dIV or just get the original 6d and a great lens

As a 3 year owner who loved the 6D and sold it recently, I don't agree at all.  Even just the transition to 26 MP would be a blessing for me cropping my tele shots not to mention the other niceties, including F8 AF.  It all depends on usage.  At the moment I don't really need the camera and so I'm waiting for a lower price. 

Based on price alone I might concur that the person who bought my 6D for $1100 is getting a better deal than buying the 6D2 at this moment.

Jack
I still have mine. It's light, versatile and perfect in low light. The 5dIV is a huge step up and I was very much looking forward to the 6d II but Canon took of in a different direction than I hoped. I was hoping for little to no bump in resolution but a huge bump in low light performance a few more was placed focus points, not a jumbled mess in the center. I like the flip out screen, the dual pixel auto focus, would love to be able to use a camera like this with a nice fast prime like the 35 1.4 II but would like a fast shutter speed of 8000 instead of 4000. I guess to many wedding photographers where willing to work with the limits of the original 6d over the 5d III and Canon didn't want a repeat. It's a good camera I am sure, but it's just not making me want to run out and buy it over what I already own.

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2017, 01:27:58 PM »

Talys

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2017, 02:25:14 PM »
If you're into trial by numbers, looking at the High ISO performance ("sports"), the 6D Mark II is DXOMark's third highest ranking camera manufactured by Canon, and not far behind 5DMark IV.  Only the 1DX Mark II is significantly better.  In High ISO performance, 6DMkII is a small leap ahead of 5DS, 5DSR, 5D Mark III, and flattens APSCs like the 80D, or, for that matter APSCs and MFTs from any make.

1DX Mk II - 3207
5D MkIV - 2995
6D MkII - 2862
1DX - 2786
5DS - 2381
6D - 2340
5DSR 2308
5DMark III - 2293

And for reference, Canon's APSC sensors fall off a cliff, scoring below the original 5D:
5D - 1368
M6 -1317
80D - 1135
7D Mark II - 1082

If you want to throw in other brands, high ISO performance of the 6DII is between the A7II and A7RII, and is around the same performance as the Nikon D810/750:

Sony A7RII - 3434
Sony A9 - 3517
Sony A7II - 2449

Nikon D750 - 2956
Nikon D810 - 2853

Olympus OMD E-M1 Mk II - 1312

Big caveat: I'm not really a believer in the trial by numbers game, especially when those numbers come close.  I would never choose a camera that scored 3,300 over one that scored 3,000 on the basis of DXOMark.  But it is useful to see patterns of large breaks and generations of camera. 

For example, I've been saying that the 6DII has a massive, observable improvement over 80D in low light ISO noise; even giving a wide berth for testing variance and methodologies, 2862 vs 1135 is such a big difference that unless the test is totally worthless, it should be indicative of a meaningful difference. 

For what it's worth, there is no MFT camera with competitive low light performance to FF.  The OM-D E-M1 Mark II is the best performing MFT at 1317, and the low light performance is in the range of modern APSCs, the best performing of which is the Nikon D7500 at 1483.  So if you believe in these sorts of measurements, and you want a high ISO camera, don't bother with MFT or APSC.

Again, assuming that you give some credence to these test methodologies, if you want a high ISO camera, the 6DII should be a candidate to consider given its price.

I think something that people have also not mentioned much is the other part of DXOMark's headline.  The 6DII has very good color depth.  I don't know why nobody talks about this, because in my opinion, color sensitivity that you will use is more important than Dynamic Range that you won't use.  Here, it is Canon's fourth best offering, with numbers similar to 5DSR and slightly behind 5DMark IV and 5DS.

The ONLY thing score that the 6DII is weak on is base ISO dynamic range.  12 EVs of DR is still a lot of dynamic range, and more DR than most people shoot on the vast majority of their photographs.  Would I like 14 EVs of DR for ISO100?  Sure, of course.  Would I pay another $1,000 for it?  No.

Yes, I would like to have it all, but if I take DXO's trifecta of color sensitivity, dynamic range, and high ISO performance, and had to sacrifice one of them to reduce the price by a third, to the level where I'd actually buy the camera -- dynamic range would be the one I'd pick.

Last thing -- I would have liked 1/8000, too.  But it's a compromise I'm willing to accept, considering the price, mostly because I rarely have enough light to make use of 1/8000 anyways.  I just don't foresee my budget including the telephotos over 200mm where I could take advantage of 1/8000.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 02:44:07 PM by Talys »

Jack Douglas

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2017, 02:38:29 PM »
@ cpsico, that's perfectly valid.  Our needs are quite different.

Jack
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Jack Douglas

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2017, 03:04:07 PM »
Give it some time and the 6D2 will again come out faring much like the 6D did.  Canon knows what they are doing.  And they don't seem to be concerned too much about the fact that all of us have something about the camera we really hoped would be better.

I got a blender.  It had 5 speeds.  Then I saw one with 10 speeds and then later, one with 20 speeds and I had a nervous breakdown because mine obviously was totally useless and I quit processing food and then I starved to death.  It's just not fair!  How could they treat me like this. :)

Jack
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AlanF

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2017, 06:31:21 PM »
If you're into trial by numbers, looking at the High ISO performance ("sports"), the 6D Mark II is DXOMark's third highest ranking camera manufactured by Canon, and not far behind 5DMark IV.  Only the 1DX Mark II is significantly better.  In High ISO performance, 6DMkII is a small leap ahead of 5DS, 5DSR, 5D Mark III, and flattens APSCs like the 80D, or, for that matter APSCs and MFTs from any make.

1DX Mk II - 3207
5D MkIV - 2995
6D MkII - 2862
1DX - 2786
5DS - 2381
6D - 2340
5DSR 2308
5DMark III - 2293

And for reference, Canon's APSC sensors fall off a cliff, scoring below the original 5D:
5D - 1368
M6 -1317
80D - 1135
7D Mark II - 1082

That is an over-simplistic take on the DxO numbers.
Firstly, for the 5DSR and 5DS vs the low resolution FFs, if you downresolve the 5DS to give the same number of pixels as the lower ones, you regain high iso performance.  For example, reducing the 50 mpx of the 5DS to the 26 mpx of the 7DII reduces the noise by a factor of sqrt(50/26), ie 1.39, increasing the effective iso performance to ~3,300 (minus a small factor). The S/N on the 5DIV is actually better than that on the 1DXII when you downsize the the pixel count.

Secondly, the APS-C do not "fall off a cliff" with iso. It all depends on what lens you put on them and whether or not you crop. If you have to crop the FF and APS-C to the same size for say a small bird in the middle of the image, then the relative DxO numbers you quote become to approximately the same for both. Further, sometimes you can put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense (or use a Metabones speed booster).
5D IV, 5DS R, 400mm DO II, 1.4xTC III, 2xTC III, EF 1.8 STM,  EF 24-105, 100-400 II, EF-S 15-85, Sigma 150-600mm C, EOS-M5 15-45, f/2 22, 11-22, Samyang 8mm f/2.8 fisheye: sold 7D II, EOS-M, Powershot G3 X,  Sigma 10-20, EF 300/2.8 II, 70-200/4 IS.

9VIII

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2017, 06:51:25 PM »
...Further, sometimes you can put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense (or use a Metabones speed booster).

I’m sorry but no matter how many times people try to say this is an advantage, in practical reality the Crop body always loses that scenario.
135f2 vs 200f2.8? Full Frame costs half as much and probably gives better IQ.
85f1.4 vs 135f2? Same thing, you’re looking at a more expensive lens on crop and the wide open performance at 85f1.4 isn’t anywhere as good as 135f2 on Full Frame.
50f1.0 vs 85f1.4 is an almost impossible scenario to achieve just based on the lack of f1.0 lenses, and of course moving to 50f1.4 pits the crop body against the inexpensive 85f1.8, which isn’t even a full stop disadvantage anymore.
35f1.4 vs 50f1.8, again, crop sensors lose horribly in all three metrics of Light Gathering, IQ and Cost (the smaller Crop sensor produces an extra 1 stop worth of noise and must be run at 1 stop lower ISO for equivalence, and “technically” it should be 1.3 stops to offset the sensor noise).

I’m probably going to get the Mitakon 35mm f0.95 for Fuji mount because “somehow” it’s actually sharp in the middle wide open, and doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. I’m just calling it The Chinese Miracle for now though because I don’t think anything else on the market comes that close to giving a crop sensor full equivalence for a half-decent price.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 06:54:19 PM by 9VIII »

AlanF

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2017, 06:59:54 PM »
...Further, sometimes you can put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense (or use a Metabones speed booster).

I’m sorry but no matter how many times people try to say this is an advantage, in practical reality the Crop body always loses that scenario.


I did not say "this is an advantage", I was pointing out why the DxO figures for sports iso should not be taken literally and can be misleading.
5D IV, 5DS R, 400mm DO II, 1.4xTC III, 2xTC III, EF 1.8 STM,  EF 24-105, 100-400 II, EF-S 15-85, Sigma 150-600mm C, EOS-M5 15-45, f/2 22, 11-22, Samyang 8mm f/2.8 fisheye: sold 7D II, EOS-M, Powershot G3 X,  Sigma 10-20, EF 300/2.8 II, 70-200/4 IS.

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2017, 06:59:54 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2017, 07:18:02 PM »
Last night I was shooting night skies with a 20mmF1.4 lens on a 6D2. There is no crop equivalence for field of view and Fstop, and the 6D2 vastly outperforms crop cameras at high ISO. This is why I bought it.
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scyrene

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2017, 08:18:48 PM »
The original 6d is from a pure IQ standpoint better. AF was never a problem for portraits, dual card slots and lack of a pic port were. Skip this camera and save up for a 5dIV or just get the original 6d and a great lens

As a 3 year owner who loved the 6D and sold it recently, I don't agree at all.  Even just the transition to 26 MP would be a blessing for me cropping my tele shots not to mention the other niceties, including F8 AF.  It all depends on usage.  At the moment I don't really need the camera and so I'm waiting for a lower price. 

Based on price alone I might concur that the person who bought my 6D for $1100 is getting a better deal than buying the 6D2 at this moment.

Jack
I still have mine. It's light, versatile and perfect in low light. The 5dIV is a huge step up and I was very much looking forward to the 6d II but Canon took of in a different direction than I hoped. I was hoping for little to no bump in resolution but a huge bump in low light performance a few more was placed focus points, not a jumbled mess in the center. I like the flip out screen, the dual pixel auto focus, would love to be able to use a camera like this with a nice fast prime like the 35 1.4 II but would like a fast shutter speed of 8000 instead of 4000. I guess to many wedding photographers where willing to work with the limits of the original 6d over the 5d III and Canon didn't want a repeat. It's a good camera I am sure, but it's just not making me want to run out and buy it over what I already own.

A couple of points of order, because these are the sorts of commonly-held assumptions that can spoil discussions here as well as confusing casual readers: first, there is not much more high ISO capability to be squeezed out of current technology (standard silicon Bayer filtered sensor etc). The quality of noise has been improved a little, and the useability of in-camera high ISO jpegs seems to be getting better, but all the top cameras have been within a stop, stop and a half of each other for years now (compare DPR's studio scene for e.g. 6D with the D5 for example), so that "huge bump" was just wishful thinking, sorry (unless possibly you go for a very low res sensor, like the ME20F-SH).

And the AF point thing: just no. People complained that there were too few on the 6D, and that only the central one was any good (at least I've seen that expressed a few times). So more were added. But they cannot be much more spread out. That's just how non-Live View FF DSLR AF systems work. See the discussions elsewhere on these forums. Please stop perpetuating the myth that the 6D2 is somehow odd in this regard. It is not.
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cpsico

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2017, 10:17:45 PM »
The original 6d is from a pure IQ standpoint better. AF was never a problem for portraits, dual card slots and lack of a pic port were. Skip this camera and save up for a 5dIV or just get the original 6d and a great lens

As a 3 year owner who loved the 6D and sold it recently, I don't agree at all.  Even just the transition to 26 MP would be a blessing for me cropping my tele shots not to mention the other niceties, including F8 AF.  It all depends on usage.  At the moment I don't really need the camera and so I'm waiting for a lower price. 

Based on price alone I might concur that the person who bought my 6D for $1100 is getting a better deal than buying the 6D2 at this moment.

Jack
I still have mine. It's light, versatile and perfect in low light. The 5dIV is a huge step up and I was very much looking forward to the 6d II but Canon took of in a different direction than I hoped. I was hoping for little to no bump in resolution but a huge bump in low light performance a few more was placed focus points, not a jumbled mess in the center. I like the flip out screen, the dual pixel auto focus, would love to be able to use a camera like this with a nice fast prime like the 35 1.4 II but would like a fast shutter speed of 8000 instead of 4000. I guess to many wedding photographers where willing to work with the limits of the original 6d over the 5d III and Canon didn't want a repeat. It's a good camera I am sure, but it's just not making me want to run out and buy it over what I already own.

A couple of points of order, because these are the sorts of commonly-held assumptions that can spoil discussions here as well as confusing casual readers: first, there is not much more high ISO capability to be squeezed out of current technology (standard silicon Bayer filtered sensor etc). The quality of noise has been improved a little, and the useability of in-camera high ISO jpegs seems to be getting better, but all the top cameras have been within a stop, stop and a half of each other for years now (compare DPR's studio scene for e.g. 6D with the D5 for example), so that "huge bump" was just wishful thinking, sorry (unless possibly you go for a very low res sensor, like the ME20F-SH).

And the AF point thing: just no. People complained that there were too few on the 6D, and that only the central one was any good (at least I've seen that expressed a few times). So more were added. But they cannot be much more spread out. That's just how non-Live View FF DSLR AF systems work. See the discussions elsewhere on these forums. Please stop perpetuating the myth that the 6D2 is somehow odd in this regard. It is not.
All good points, but the same sensor tech in the 5d IV on a 20 or 22 megapixel sensor is more personally what I would have wanted. It's a nice resolution, decent file size, still room to crop size. I really like dual pixel autofocus, it's fantastic to have in live view. Subtle improvements on a winning formula for a price that left room for other accessories was my wish list. I can't call the new 6dII a bad camera, but it's an odd mix. Aps-c focus system, still no uhs-2 Sd slot, or 2 card slots, what appears to be the same mediocre LCD, even the LCD on the 5d II was better than the 6d. The original 6d offered a top notch sensor in a bargain body. The new 6d offers plenty of resolution but no real improvement. It's never meant to be a sports camera so why the 80d focus system is there seems silly. The old focus points were limited but well placed. Improving the already very good battery life was nice, tilting screen very nice, but at the end of they day it's not for me at 2000 dollars. Canon could easily put 4K video in this camera and leveraged there amazing lens line up to regain lost market, instead we get 1080p. Canon needs to realize it's no longer a market where canon is only competing with canon. Sony, Panasonic,Pentax and Nikon now have serious options to compete in the "first full frame" camera market. They need to end the practice of needlessly hobbling camera features for fear of not selling there own high end cameras.

9VIII

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2017, 03:11:00 AM »
...Further, sometimes you can put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense (or use a Metabones speed booster).

I’m sorry but no matter how many times people try to say this is an advantage, in practical reality the Crop body always loses that scenario.


I did not say "this is an advantage", I was pointing out why the DxO figures for sports iso should not be taken literally and can be misleading.

It is implicit in your sentence that it was intended to say "this is an advantage".
That doesn't make the rest of your post meaningless, but:
...put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense...

This is a fallacy that has been used ad-nauseam over the last 5 years trying to sell smaller sensors to mis-informed consumers. People will use this to say Full Frame is inferior and letting that just casually slip on this forum would be a disservice to everyone.

AlanF

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2017, 04:08:36 AM »
...Further, sometimes you can put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense (or use a Metabones speed booster).

I’m sorry but no matter how many times people try to say this is an advantage, in practical reality the Crop body always loses that scenario.


I did not say "this is an advantage", I was pointing out why the DxO figures for sports iso should not be taken literally and can be misleading.

It is implicit in your sentence that it was intended to say "this is an advantage".
That doesn't make the rest of your post meaningless, but:
...put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense...

This is a fallacy that has been used ad-nauseam over the last 5 years trying to sell smaller sensors to mis-informed consumers. People will use this to say Full Frame is inferior and letting that just casually slip on this forum would be a disservice to everyone.

It was not implicit in any way whatsoever, and there is absolutely no justification for your comment.  I did not intend to say what you claim to say and I did not write it. I make no brief for FF vs APS-C - I use both as each has its pros and cons, depending on what your uses are.  What I do not appreciate is people rubbishing APS-C because they own a FF and those who rubbish FF because they own APS-C. Respect other peoples choices of gear.
5D IV, 5DS R, 400mm DO II, 1.4xTC III, 2xTC III, EF 1.8 STM,  EF 24-105, 100-400 II, EF-S 15-85, Sigma 150-600mm C, EOS-M5 15-45, f/2 22, 11-22, Samyang 8mm f/2.8 fisheye: sold 7D II, EOS-M, Powershot G3 X,  Sigma 10-20, EF 300/2.8 II, 70-200/4 IS.

9VIII

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2017, 04:32:14 AM »
...Further, sometimes you can put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense (or use a Metabones speed booster).

I’m sorry but no matter how many times people try to say this is an advantage, in practical reality the Crop body always loses that scenario.


I did not say "this is an advantage", I was pointing out why the DxO figures for sports iso should not be taken literally and can be misleading.

It is implicit in your sentence that it was intended to say "this is an advantage".
That doesn't make the rest of your post meaningless, but:
...put a ~1.6x shorter focal length but wider lens with a better f-number on the APS-C  to give the same resolution as a longer lens on FF but with the light on the sensor more intense...

This is a fallacy that has been used ad-nauseam over the last 5 years trying to sell smaller sensors to mis-informed consumers. People will use this to say Full Frame is inferior and letting that just casually slip on this forum would be a disservice to everyone.

It was not implicit in any way whatsoever, and there is absolutely no justification for your comment.  I did not intend to say what you claim to say and I did not write it. I make no brief for FF vs APS-C - I use both as each has its pros and cons, depending on what your uses are.  What I do not appreciate is people rubbishing APS-C because they own a FF and those who rubbish FF because they own APS-C. Respect other peoples choices of gear.

I’m glad that you’re not confused about sensor equivalence, but it is still implicit in the words regardless of whether or not that was the intention. I guarantee casual observers would have taken it the wrong way.

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2017, 04:32:14 AM »

SecureGSM

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2017, 05:09:24 AM »
Scyrene,

yes AF points can be spread out and considerably so. see the image attached. 5D IV vs 6D II.
I love my Canon system, but the 6D II AF spread was a BUSINESS decision by Canon rather than a technical issue. I hope common sense prevails.

And the AF point thing: just no. People complained that there were too few on the 6D, and that only the central one was any good (at least I've seen that expressed a few times). So more were added. But they cannot be much more spread out. That's just how non-Live View FF DSLR AF systems work. See the discussions elsewhere on these forums. Please stop perpetuating the myth that the 6D2 is somehow odd in this regard. It is not.

BillB

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2017, 07:24:03 AM »
Scyrene,

yes AF points can be spread out and considerably so. see the image attached. 5D IV vs 6D II.
I love my Canon system, but the 6D II AF spread was a BUSINESS decision by Canon rather than a technical issue. I hope common sense prevails.

And the AF point thing: just no. People complained that there were too few on the 6D, and that only the central one was any good (at least I've seen that expressed a few times). So more were added. But they cannot be much more spread out. That's just how non-Live View FF DSLR AF systems work. See the discussions elsewhere on these forums. Please stop perpetuating the myth that the 6D2 is somehow odd in this regard. It is not.

Well, the point spread of the 6D is somewhat smaller than the 5DIV, but whether it is considerably so is a matter of opinion.  Your opinion is that it is considerable, others think not.  Both cover the central ninth of the screen.  Neither provides much coverage of the remaining eight ninths of the screen, and that would seem to reflect the state of the art. 

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Re: DXO: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Sensor Review: Great Color and ISO Performance
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2017, 07:24:03 AM »