October 24, 2017, 07:44:21 AM

Author Topic: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]  (Read 22379 times)

MayaTlab

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 01:27:11 PM »
The FF mount mirrorless decision (EF vs. thinner than EF) remains a 50-50 call at best. 

I'll just amend that graph by saying that a short flange doesn't preclude a properly designed grip of any particular size.

+1.  I've been saying this for some time.  See pic below.  Unless you are only shooting a pancake, there is zero justification for how tiny grips have been in mirrorless to date.  Larger grip is only a good thing in that it gets you more stable shooting, more controls/buttons like our SLRs and more battery.  Other than the total camera width, unless you only pack your mirrorless rig with lens unattached, tiny grips don't save you any space in your bag.

- A

That's a neat graph and I share the overall thinking.

When I put a camera in my bags, what matters most is the overall box dimensions of the camera (few exceptions to that principle exist of course). Any space within that box that isn't filled with camera bits could be wasted opportunities.

A very good example of that is grip height vs pentaprism height. I have no understanding why every single camera manufacturers insists that the central pentaprism must be towering over the rest of the body by 2 cm or more, even when it would have made sense to raise the grip height - while keeping the pentaprism height constant - to avoid having your little finger dangle in the void below.

The EM1II is a good example of a camera that despite reducing the pentaprism height over its predecessor, has actually improved the grip, partly by raising the grip height.

I still think that it's very important to have a few really small cameras in a lineup, but it shouldn't be an irrational, systemic modus operandi. And even small grips can be much improved over the mostly woeful things we've seen lately.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 01:30:17 PM by MayaTlab »

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2017, 01:27:11 PM »

Tugela

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2017, 02:56:12 PM »
This has been worked on for a while, remember - the longer you spend developing and fine-tuning a camera the more likely that your basic technology (eg sensor) is going to be out of date the day you launch.

Things like the form factor, lens mount, etc, these are decisions that would have been made a long time ago. You design the stuff that doesn't age first, and then as you get closer to your launch date you build in the latest tech you have available. If there are prototypes going around Canon right now then that would indicate they're in that final stage of internal acceptance, which means they're unlikely to step back now.

More likely they were waiting until they had a processor that could compete (at least on paper) with those that Sony and Panasonic have.

unfocused

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2017, 02:59:37 PM »
I think the new mount vs. old mount debate may largely hinge on where Canon sees the development of the 1D line headed over the next decade.

If you believe that eventually, once all the technical details get worked out, the mirrorless design will have sufficient advantages to obsolete the SLR design, then you have to ask how Canon and Nikon will treat their flagship cameras.

Would a mirrorless 1DX or Nikon D? have essentially the same ergonomics as the SLR versions? Probably. The flagship market is very conservative and they don't take kindly to people moving their cheese about. Nor, would professionals much like the idea of adding an adapter that can be lost, malfunction, compromise quality or simply be viewed as an unneeded inconvenience. And, since SLRs and Mirrorless are likely to live side-by-side for many years, Canon and Nikon need to accommodate the professional who carries two bodies.

Alternatively, in a decade or so, would Canon and Nikon have two different mirrorless series – an enthusiast series with a new native mount and a professional series with EF mount? Given that the enthusiast and professional markets need one another to make the economies of scale work, I expect that a single full frame mirrorless series would be much more likely.

Given the minimal advantages that a new mount offers, I just don't see it working out that way.

jolyonralph

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 03:52:51 PM »

(from the image)

No need to buy new lenses.
Big mount = chunky grip = more battery.
You can't accidentally leave a mount adapter at home if it doesn't exist.
Canon can focus lens resources on EF / EF-S / EF-M instead of building up a portfolio in this new thin mount.

In order: Wrong, wrong, tenuous and unconnected to the point

No need to buy new lenses.  You don't need to buy new lenses in any case assuming you have the EF adapter.

Big mount = chunky grip = more battery. - Newsflash. you don't have to have a weedy battery in a mirrorless. Canon's mirrorless do because they use the same cheap batteries as the newer Rebels.  Look at the Sony A9 and you'll see that what you're saying is basically nonsense.

You can't accidentally leave a mount adapter at home if it doesn't exist. - Your forgetfulness isn't really a great reason to define which lens mount should be used.

Canon can focus lens resources on EF / EF-S / EF-M instead of building up a portfolio in this new thin mount. - Canon will focus their lens resources in the same way they always do - whatever can bring them the best profit. You may prefer they don't design new lenses for a mount you don't want to buy, but that's your problem not theirs. Personally, I have no interest in Canon Cinema cameras or their lenses, but I don't bitch that they are wasting resources that should be dedicated to designing 50mm f1.4IS lenses or whatever :)

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raptor3x

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 04:00:45 PM »
Big mount = chunky grip = more battery. - Newsflash. you don't have to have a weedy battery in a mirrorless. Canon's mirrorless do because they use the same cheap batteries as the newer Rebels.  Look at the Sony A9 and you'll see that what you're saying is basically nonsense.

Just like Olympus did with the E-M1ii, Sony made room for the new battery by making the grip larger.
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unfocused

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 04:08:38 PM »

(from the image)

No need to buy new lenses.
Big mount = chunky grip = more battery.
You can't accidentally leave a mount adapter at home if it doesn't exist.
Canon can focus lens resources on EF / EF-S / EF-M instead of building up a portfolio in this new thin mount.

In order: Wrong, wrong, tenuous and unconnected to the point

I think you are confusing points and counterpoints.

Ahsanford simply listed what he considered to be some pros in favor of each option. Obviously, one can argue counterpoints, but that doesn't make the points "wrong," it simply offers up counter arguments. Which of course, can go on back and forth forever (and probably will, given the nature of this forum).

jolyonralph

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 04:29:14 PM »
I was just (helpfully :D ) pointing out that nothing in the 'con' column really was a genuine disadvantage.
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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 04:29:14 PM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2017, 04:29:54 PM »
The FF mount mirrorless decision (EF vs. thinner than EF) remains a 50-50 call at best.

there's alot to be said for your chart.

but.

a few things. canon EF mount already can adapt quite a bit of old glass.  about the only old glass that can't is the FD mount, and minolta mount glass, and leica/other rangefinder mount glass.

Contax / Yashica / OM1/2 / Pentax M42/K mount ,etc can all be adapted now.

not to mention that canon wouldn't even give a rats behind behind old glass compatibility.

on the con list, you missed the elephant in the room - there's 120 million reasons why canon wouldn't switch wholesale to a new mount, and it really has to the increase of buyer uncertainty.  that just KILLED the A mount marketshare that Sony had slowly brought up.  Sony right now if they didn't kill the A mount off, would be over Nikon in total marketshare.  Now they are play even second fiddle to Nikon.

Sony had adapters and everything - they even had smart adapters that canon wouldn't do probably.  It still just killed the A mount off as a viable supported mount with a healthy mount marketshare.

Don't think that Canon is stupid enough to try the same thing that Sony did.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 04:36:36 PM by rrcphoto »

bvukich

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2017, 04:37:39 PM »
I have maybe $10k in EF glass.  Not an obscene amount, but not trivial either. 

I want a Canon FF mirrorless to be whatever mount will perform the best, even if it's not EF.  All I ask is a mount converter that's not obscenely priced.  I'll probably get one or two native lenses that make sense (~35/50mm prime, and wide-ish zoom come to mind), and for everything else I'll use converted.

midluk

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2017, 04:40:07 PM »
A smaller flange distance for size reasons does not make any sense in a FF mirrorless. If you use fast lenses, it won't be small or light, and if you don't use fast lenses, you better use APS-C.

I think that being able to adapt glass is more a con than a pro for Canon. You are supposed to buy their lenses, not adapt anything else.

The only advantages of a small flange distance I can see are easier to design wide angle lenses and a bigger possible tilt for T/S-lenses.
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Yasko

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 04:46:34 PM »
Mirrorless makes sense as long as the lenses are small, with a 24-70 2.8 lens, the size advantage is gone.

So if they bring a FF mirrorless camera, it would need some smaller lenses, which use the mirrorless advantage, bigger ones can remain EF lenses with adapter.

Canon just released long living value lenses like the new T/S lenses and the 85mm these would not be developped shortly before there mount gets obsolete.

If customers would have a concern that the mount will be obsolete soon, just this would make it obsolete, nobody would buy anything expensive for it anymore

Small lenses and full frame are contradictionary. There are small lenses (40 mm f 2.8) but full frame needs big glass if you want large apertures. So I guess you will have to cope with that.

ahsanford

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2017, 04:55:49 PM »
Great feedback on the chart, gang -- I mean that.  I've posted it a number of times and it never stirs this kind of conversation.  Appreciated!

What impresses me about the mount decision is how obvious the decision is to the person responding to the question -- yet I'm still guessing it's about a 50-50 split here (previous CR polling is here, btw).  Some folks want an EF-embracing / no doubt of EF's future / no need for adaptors / 'why chase size savings if lenses will still be big' completely seamless transition to mirrorless, and others are convinced it 100% will be a thin new mount because that's what the market is, any small bit smaller/lighter is a good thing, adaptors are simple and work well, etc.

I find the obviousness of what will happen vs. the clear split in our opinion as an interesting parallel to our times.  So much of what we read, process, interpret these days instantly segregates into camps of A vs. B where each side is convinced they are right.  I am not.  I have no idea which way Canon will land on this.

- A
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 04:58:07 PM by ahsanford »

jolyonralph

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2017, 04:56:57 PM »
People get hung up with the sizes of zoom lenses on mirrorless.

Honestly, the only lenses I ever use on my A7RII are the 35mm f/2.8 and the absolutely wonderful 55mm f/1.8

If I want a 2.8 zoom it's going to be heavy whatever mount I use.  And with 40 megapixels using a prime and cropping is good enough for me - I don't need a 24-70.

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2017, 04:56:57 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2017, 05:05:06 PM »
People get hung up with the sizes of zoom lenses on mirrorless.

Honestly, the only lenses I ever use on my A7RII are the 35mm f/2.8 and the absolutely wonderful 55mm f/1.8

If I want a 2.8 zoom it's going to be heavy whatever mount I use.  And with 40 megapixels using a prime and cropping is good enough for me - I don't need a 24-70.

I'm shocked that someone who is all in favor of a thin mount mirrorless only uses modestly sized primes.   ;)

I'm not saying your perspective is incorrect or misplaced, it just walks completely against the grain of working pros who tend to lug f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes around all day. I'm going to be brave and guess that seamlessness in handling/controls/etc. with their primary SLR on the other shoulder is a pretty high priority for those folks, and that might imply full EF mount would get their vote.

- A

MayaTlab

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2017, 05:26:55 PM »
it just walks completely against the grain of working pros who tend to lug f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes around all day.

I feel that this is the picture Canon wants people to believe happens, but I don't think that it's representative of what is really happening in all fields of professional photography.

Here in Paris, for fashion, I'm not seeing a truckload of big L lenses being systematically used by professionals using Canon cameras. I believe that I've seen the whole gamut of photographic equipment used, honestly. There's been Phase One XF, Hasselblad (a lot), Sony A7 (a lot of A7RIIs), Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc... and with all kinds of lenses of various sizes and max apertures. And thats not even counting film photographers, who are aplenty :D.

This is purely anecdotal, but, for example, I have yet to assist on a shoot with a Canon 85mm f1.2 :D.

The same goes for Lighting. There's been Broncolor, Profoto, but there's also been the sort of old equipment you can't even read the brand because the paint has faded, fresnels, LEDs, Youngnuo speedlites, the sun, etc...

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Re: Will it be the EOS M1? [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2017, 05:26:55 PM »