December 11, 2017, 08:36:59 AM

Author Topic: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]  (Read 19936 times)

mlmcasual

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 06:22:56 PM »
Will, if history is any prediction of the future with Canon..
It will have poor Dynamic range, no 4K,  lag way behind the FujiX T2.. and will cost double what it's worth.

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 06:22:56 PM »

pwp

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 07:12:33 PM »
Personally I think that an APS-H size sensor (with e.g 6D-size pixels) would be sufficient for a large-sensor mirrorless camera, & help keep the size & weight down while still being a significant step up from the APS-C crowd.
Nice thought, but the marketing people at Canon wouldn't let this even get past the conversation stage. I have always been a great fan of APS-H, notably the brilliant 1D MkIV, but don't expect for a moment that we'll ever see another APS-H body from Canon.

-pw

Isaacheus

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 07:40:26 PM »
Will, if history is any prediction of the future with Canon..
It will have poor Dynamic range, no 4K,  lag way behind the FujiX T2.. and will cost double what it's worth.

To be fair, they might put mjpeg 4k in it? 🤔

I think there would be a even bigger complaint cycle if Canon didn't manage to at least improve on the 5d mk4 sensor and capabilities over two years; hopefully this will be a pair to the 5dsr mk2?

jolyonralph

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 08:43:32 PM »

1) I thought the M5 and M6 differed only in one getting an integral EVF.  (Correct/incorrect?)


The M5 has Touch and Drag Autofocus (where you can control the focus point using the touch screen while viewing through the EVF). This is really useful.

The M6 does not have this feature, even if you attach the optional electronic viewfinder.
Jolyon Ralph

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vangelismm

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 09:02:25 PM »
Without Eye AF track, i will pass.

bf

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 09:25:54 PM »
It has been a long time since we are debating a full frame mirror-less on Canon's line up. When they first came up with EOS M we wanted it to be a full frame. When they left U.S. we wanted them to return with a FF! Still one more year for a rumor that sounds a long time. Looking at Sony's system I'm not that eager about FF mirror-less bodies anymore. Let's see how Nikon does it first!   
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 09:47:50 PM »
I think we're all in agreement that it will probably be called the M1, and Canon have been rebranding/positioning their EOS M line to match the 'European' EOS naming conventions... See below:

1D/M1 - Professional 'Halo' Product/Highest Performance
5D/M5 - Professional/High Performance
6D/M6 - Entry level Professional/Enthusiast High Performance

x0D/Mx0 - Enthusiast/Performance (This whole theory hinges on what the M20 will look like...)

x00D/Mx00 - Entry level (Ever wonder why the successor to the M10 was the M100? I think this is why...)

The potential M20 and the existence of the M100 cameras are really what bring this idea to life, but it would be nice to have some congruity between the two product lines. What do you all think?

Not all of us.

I believe the M series will stay as APS-C.  According to your theory, the M6 would be FF, and the m3 would be a high end camera.


I think a new series is needed for a FF mirrorless, the M series consists of entry level or near entry level cameras that are APSC and never intended to be high end.

I could see a FF as a 6DM, I do not think that a 1 series or even a 5 series Mirrorless is yet in the works.  It will be entry level FF.

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 09:47:50 PM »

1kind

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 09:58:22 PM »
I just hope they don't remove DPAF.
Considering DPAF is showing up in newer cameras, I'm guessing its here to stay.

1kind

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2017, 10:03:15 PM »
1D/M1 - Professional 'Halo' Product/Highest Performance
5D/M5 - Professional/High Performance
6D/M6 - Entry level Professional/Enthusiast High Performance

1) I thought the M5 and M6 differed only in one getting an integral EVF.  (Correct/incorrect?)

2) Equating the functionality / IQ / performance of the 5D and the M5 is off-target.  The 5D is a professional rig with a professional build and feature set -- it just lack an integral grip and sexiest of the highest end stuff the 1DX platform gets.  In contrast, I'd more liken the M5 to the 80D, not the 5D brand.

I get your good/better/best approach, but as mirrorless will straddle mount sizes in this approach, I see it more like:

M1 (if that's what it's called) = a 6D2 + EVF - mirror.  I just don't see them offering a beastly 5D4 / 5DS / 1DX2 level mirrorless rig to start.   Go for well-heeled enthusiasts and folks looking for a solid second body and scoop up all the cash from pent-up demand.

M5/M6 = 80D for those who do/don't want an integral EVF.  I think it's perfectly positioned right there -- going upmarket to a 7D2-like 'crop 1DX lite' rig is a leap to me.

- A
M5 and M6 differed in body style mainly. Specs and internally its all the same. M6 does not have the touch-and-drag focus.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 10:19:29 PM »
Let's see how Nikon does it first!

I'll be (not really) brave here.  Nikon FF mirrorless will be:

  • Skinny new mount (not a full FX mount)
  • Integral EVF (...only, no OVF / Hybrid setup)
  • A few lower profile, 'nicer but not best' quality lenses that make the small overall rig size pop the most (35 f/2, 50 f/1.8, etc.) -- native mount lenses might be focus-by-wire only
  • Adaptor for FX glass
  • 4K:  Yes
  • IBIS:  No
  • Higher fps than you might think for a first go at FF mirrorless (7-8 fps; N1 demonstrated their ability to run high fps, and the D850 shows they can move a ton of data)
  • They might do something silly and chase a specific standalone mirrorless-only design/control aesthetic and ask for silly money for the privilege, but they ought to mimic their D500/D850 handling and controls if they know what's good for them.  They are building a platform that should feel really intuitive to current Nikon users, not chasing some exotic/bougie premium dollar rig with a zany new control scheme.

Only difference from Canon's mirrorless plan?  Canon might be practical enough / foolish enough* to release a full EF mount mirrorless setup.  I see Nikon playing it safe w.r.t. Sony's established market of 'it's about being smaller, dummy' and going with a thin mount.

*Depending on where you stand on the FF mirrorless mount debate, which is neverending.

- A

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 10:23:19 PM »
I just hope they don't remove DPAF.
Considering DPAF is showing up in newer cameras, I'm guessing its here to stay.

It's a core, ground floor 100% take-it-to-the-bank-going-to-be-there-on-day-one piece of tech that Canon will build it's FF mirrorless platform around. 

The only way Canon's first FF mirrorless doesn't have DPAF is if some DPAF 2.0 with a different acronym is onboard instead (QPAF for quad-pixel, anyone?).  DPAF or something like it is a hammerlock certainty based on the widespread push of that tech across almost the entire platform, especially in how it makes LiveView (aka EVF) focusing truly sing.

- A
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 10:25:23 PM by ahsanford »

Proscribo

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 10:26:21 PM »
I just hope they don't remove DPAF.
Considering DPAF is showing up in newer cameras, I'm guessing its here to stay.

It's a core, ground floor 100% take-it-to-the-bank-going-to-be-there-on-day-one piece of tech that Canon will build it's FF mirrorless platform around. 

The only way Canon's first FF mirrorless doesn't have DPAF is if some DPAF 2.0 with a different acronym is onboard instead (QPAF for quad-pixel, anyone?).  DPAF or something like it is a hammerlock certainty based on the widespread push of that tech across almost the entire platform, especially in how it makes LiveView (aka EVF) focusing truly sing.

- A
Would be sweet, at least in theory.  :D

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 11:02:52 PM »
I just hope they don't remove DPAF.
Considering DPAF is showing up in newer cameras, I'm guessing its here to stay.

It's a core, ground floor 100% take-it-to-the-bank-going-to-be-there-on-day-one piece of tech that Canon will build it's FF mirrorless platform around. 

The only way Canon's first FF mirrorless doesn't have DPAF is if some DPAF 2.0 with a different acronym is onboard instead (QPAF for quad-pixel, anyone?).  DPAF or something like it is a hammerlock certainty based on the widespread push of that tech across almost the entire platform, especially in how it makes LiveView (aka EVF) focusing truly sing.

- A

Canon has already said that all new sensors will be DPAF, and will also have on sensor A-D conversion.  Its a given until something better comes along.

Canon has a recent patent for the problem that affects mirrorless DPAF due to the shallow angle to the outer pixels.  This would likely be necessary for a FF Mirrorless that used a short lens-sensor distance, since the angle gets shallower.

I agree that Manufacturers have a chance to get it right this time, Canon has been edging closer with DPAF, my 5D MK IV and SL2 could pass quite well for a mirrorless camera with a few tweaks, and Canon has now had 3 years to develop them.

If they get it right, it may indeed be true that all future new models will be mirrorless.

As far as FPS, its a combination of sensor readout speed as well as processor power.  Sensor readout speed needs something like a multi layer back illuminated sensor to provide a good ground plane so the sensor wells can be emptied very fast.  Processor power is linked to the technology used to fab the die and to the size of the battery, heat dissipation is also a issue, and small bodies do not do as well.

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 11:02:52 PM »

Ryananthony

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2017, 11:26:52 PM »
If canon went with a new mount for the FF mirrorless  (I hope the dont, and don't think they will) what are the chances AF perormance with EF lenses and an adapter would be better then Sony with a EF adapter? I read that Sony A-mount adapted lenses on E-Mount lose FPS, and don't focus as well as E-mount native. Would it be likely Canon would have better luck?

bf

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2017, 11:31:48 PM »
Let's see how Nikon does it first!

I'll be (not really) brave here.  Nikon FF mirrorless will be:

  • Skinny new mount (not a full FX mount)
  • Integral EVF (...only, no OVF / Hybrid setup)
  • A few lower profile, 'nicer but not best' quality lenses that make the small overall rig size pop the most (35 f/2, 50 f/1.8, etc.) -- native mount lenses might be focus-by-wire only
  • Adaptor for FX glass
...

I think adaptor defeats the purpose of a mirrorless. In your description Canon will offer a more attractive design. On the other hand, Nikon has been more loyal to its legacy glass.[/list]
EOS M+6

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2017, 11:31:48 PM »