December 13, 2017, 07:58:20 PM

Author Topic: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]  (Read 20163 times)

TAF

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 11:37:44 PM »
I just hope they don't remove DPAF.
Considering DPAF is showing up in newer cameras, I'm guessing its here to stay.

It's a core, ground floor 100% take-it-to-the-bank-going-to-be-there-on-day-one piece of tech that Canon will build it's FF mirrorless platform around. 

The only way Canon's first FF mirrorless doesn't have DPAF is if some DPAF 2.0 with a different acronym is onboard instead (QPAF for quad-pixel, anyone?).  DPAF or something like it is a hammerlock certainty based on the widespread push of that tech across almost the entire platform, especially in how it makes LiveView (aka EVF) focusing truly sing.

- A

Canon has already said that all new sensors will be DPAF, and will also have on sensor A-D conversion.  Its a given until something better comes along.

Canon has a recent patent for the problem that affects mirrorless DPAF due to the shallow angle to the outer pixels.  This would likely be necessary for a FF Mirrorless that used a short lens-sensor distance, since the angle gets shallower.

I agree that Manufacturers have a chance to get it right this time, Canon has been edging closer with DPAF, my 5D MK IV and SL2 could pass quite well for a mirrorless camera with a few tweaks, and Canon has now had 3 years to develop them.

If they get it right, it may indeed be true that all future new models will be mirrorless.

As far as FPS, its a combination of sensor readout speed as well as processor power.  Sensor readout speed needs something like a multi layer back illuminated sensor to provide a good ground plane so the sensor wells can be emptied very fast.  Processor power is linked to the technology used to fab the die and to the size of the battery, heat dissipation is also a issue, and small bodies do not do as well.

Form factor...if they try to squeeze a FF mirrorless into a tiny body, they get the worst of all worlds.

But if they try a totally different form factor, they can overcome all the problems in one quick pass.

Think Hasselblad or Rollei.  Something like an SL3003 shape would be ideal.  EF mount, plenty of space for heat sinking, batteries, and memory cards, and with the EVF on the top, the ergonomics would be excellent, albeit totally different from what most people are used to.

I would pay good money for that body to use all my nice L glass.


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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2017, 11:37:44 PM »

Isaacheus

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2017, 11:48:37 PM »
[quote author=Mt Spokane Photography

Canon has already said that all new sensors will be DPAF, and will also have on sensor A-D conversion.  Its a given until something better comes along.

[/quote]

Was this said before or after the 6dmk2 release? As I believe that uses the old off sensor A-D conversion. the promo material also said the sensor was the same tech as the 5dmk4, so it'll be interesting to see what they go with

tmroper

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2017, 01:01:48 AM »
Canon has decades of experience with mirrorless cameras, in the form of camcorders, ENG cameras, and their Cinema cameras.  So they're certainly as capable as Sony, who have very similar technical experience with mirrorless, in creating something great. I'm hoping they do.

dsut4392

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2017, 01:47:12 AM »


Form factor...if they try to squeeze a FF mirrorless into a tiny body, they get the worst of all worlds.

But if they try a totally different form factor, they can overcome all the problems in one quick pass.

Think Hasselblad or Rollei.  Something like an SL3003 shape would be ideal.  EF mount, plenty of space for heat sinking, batteries, and memory cards, and with the EVF on the top, the ergonomics would be excellent, albeit totally different from what most people are used to.

I would pay good money for that body to use all my nice L glass.

Because nothing says "ergonomics" like shooting hunched over looking towards the ground? While they are at it,  they could charge more if it comes complete with firmware that sets the image to be flipped L-R like a proper waist level finder :)
Seriously, if they make this any bigger than it needs to be (determined mostly by flange distance and mount diameter) it's dead in the water. Those that like a bigger grip or more battery life can add an accessory grip, like we used to in the film days.
As for heat sinking, can we please all stop with the "bigger = better" fallacy? Cameras run into heat  issues primarily through poor thermal transfer (i.e. they can't move heat away from the sensor fast enough), not a lack of thermal mass. IBIS would be a particular constraint in this regard, because the sensor module needs to be able to move relative to the rest of the body (which requires a low sensor module mass so the actuators can move it, and an air gap, seriously compromising the thermal path). Increasing the total camera mass will slightly extend the time you can run the camera before it overheats - but if the bottleneck is the thermal path from the sensor, the gain may not be that great. Making a camera more brick shaped is an extremely inefficient way to increase the thermal transfer capacity, because what you need (in the absence of active cooling) is radiant surface area.

AvTvM

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2017, 02:56:30 AM »


Form factor...if they try to squeeze a FF mirrorless into a tiny body, they get the worst of all worlds.

But if they try a totally different form factor, they can overcome all the problems in one quick pass.

Think Hasselblad or Rollei.  Something like an SL3003 shape would be ideal.  EF mount, plenty of space for heat sinking, batteries, and memory cards, and with the EVF on the top, the ergonomics would be excellent, albeit totally different from what most people are used to.

I would pay good money for that body to use all my nice L glass.

Because nothing says "ergonomics" like shooting hunched over looking towards the ground? While they are at it,  they could charge more if it comes complete with firmware that sets the image to be flipped L-R like a proper waist level finder :)
Seriously, if they make this any bigger than it needs to be (determined mostly by flange distance and mount diameter) it's dead in the water. Those that like a bigger grip or more battery life can add an accessory grip, like we used to in the film days.
As for heat sinking, can we please all stop with the "bigger = better" fallacy? Cameras run into heat  issues primarily through poor thermal transfer (i.e. they can't move heat away from the sensor fast enough), not a lack of thermal mass. IBIS would be a particular constraint in this regard, because the sensor module needs to be able to move relative to the rest of the body (which requires a low sensor module mass so the actuators can move it, and an air gap, seriously compromising the thermal path). Increasing the total camera mass will slightly extend the time you can run the camera before it overheats - but if the bottleneck is the thermal path from the sensor, the gain may not be that great. Making a camera more brick shaped is an extremely inefficient way to increase the thermal transfer capacity, because what you need (in the absence of active cooling) is radiant surface area.

+100  :)

Instead of boxy and cubic, cameras could also be made neatly ball-shaped  ::) :P - so we could throw them up in the air and capture photos while doing so ... without any ergonomic hassles ...  https://www.panono.com/en
 ;)  ;D  :P  ::)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 04:47:10 AM by AvTvM »

jolyonralph

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2017, 03:24:59 AM »
Seriously, if they make this any bigger than it needs to be (determined mostly by flange distance and mount diameter) it's dead in the water. Those that like a bigger grip or more battery life can add an accessory grip, like we used to in the film days.
As for heat sinking, can we please all stop with the "bigger = better" fallacy? Cameras run into heat  issues primarily through poor thermal transfer (i.e. they can't move heat away from the sensor fast enough), not a lack of thermal mass. IBIS would be a particular constraint in this regard, because the sensor module needs to be able to move relative to the rest of the body (which requires a low sensor module mass so the actuators can move it, and an air gap, seriously compromising the thermal path). Increasing the total camera mass will slightly extend the time you can run the camera before it overheats - but if the bottleneck is the thermal path from the sensor, the gain may not be that great. Making a camera more brick shaped is an extremely inefficient way to increase the thermal transfer capacity, because what you need (in the absence of active cooling) is radiant surface area.

Well said!
Jolyon Ralph

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littleB

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2017, 04:12:26 AM »

As for heat sinking, can we please all stop with the "bigger = better" fallacy? Cameras run into heat  issues primarily through poor thermal transfer (i.e. they can't move heat away from the sensor fast enough), not a lack of thermal mass. IBIS would be a particular constraint in this regard, because the sensor module needs to be able to move relative to the rest of the body (which requires a low sensor module mass so the actuators can move it, and an air gap, seriously compromising the thermal path). Increasing the total camera mass will slightly extend the time you can run the camera before it overheats - but if the bottleneck is the thermal path from the sensor, the gain may not be that great. Making a camera more brick shaped is an extremely inefficient way to increase the thermal transfer capacity, because what you need (in the absence of active cooling) is radiant surface area.
You must be a specialist in heat conduction science to use such kind of wording, like fallacy and such reasoning.
Please explain me, how smaller sized object of the same shape and same materials would have larger heat radiation.
Block shaped camers have more radiation surface than ball-shaped ones. Bigger cameras have more radiation surface and more heat transfer opportunities inside the body than smaller ones of similar shape. Bigger size, same shape =bigger surface = bigger heat radiation.
Take litlle heat-efficient camera as is, all technology except heat dissipation, increase its size and make heat dissilation system more efficient. Use liquids, use silver. The result will be less overheating.

You also arbitrarily mix mass and size. These are not the same.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 04:37:49 AM by littleB »

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2017, 04:12:26 AM »

AvTvM

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2017, 04:44:56 AM »
You must be a specialist in heat conduction science to use such kind of wording, like fallacy and such reasoning.
Please explain me, how smaller sized object of the same shape and same materials would have larger heat radiation.
Block shaped camers have more radiation surface than ball-shaped ones. Bigger cameras have more radiation surface and more heat transfer opportunities inside the body than smaller ones of similar shape. Bigger size, same shape =bigger surface = bigger heat radiation.

No, I don't want a big fat camera brick as handwarmer. Big outer shell is meaningless for efficient thermal design of a camera. I want a small camera without any video capture [other than video-feed needed for LCD and EVF]. No 4k, no thermal issues even in a FF camera as small as a Sony RX-1R II.

Mikehit

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2017, 05:23:18 AM »

Please explain me, how smaller sized object of the same shape and same materials would have larger heat radiation.
Ratio of surface area to volume. A principle of physics that a 12-year old would understand.


Bigger cameras have more radiation surface and more heat transfer opportunities inside the body than smaller ones of similar shape.
Bigger size, same shape =bigger surface = bigger heat radiation.
It is about ratios. Bigger bodies hold more volume to retain the heat compared to the amount of surface radiating heat. It is why big animals overheat more than little animals - it is why elephants need huge ears to lose heat and mice do not. It is why little mammals need to eat more so they can maintain body temperature because they are losing heat more rapidly.
Basic biology.


Take litlle heat-efficient camera as is, all technology except heat dissipation, increase its size and make heat dissilation system more efficient. Use liquids, use silver. The result will be less overheating.

But you said that big bodies have more radiating surface so on your theory you would not need a more efficient heat dissipation.
Do you want water slopping around in your camera? I don't.
Use silver? Why?

jolyonralph

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2017, 05:54:29 AM »
I want a small camera without any video capture [other than video-feed needed for LCD and EVF].

Not going to happen. You may not want video, but a significant % of the market do. I use video less than 1% of the time I use my camera, but I wouldn't buy another serious camera that didn't include it.
Jolyon Ralph

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Mr Majestyk

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2017, 07:27:41 AM »
Hilarious to think the 6DII sensor would even be considered. The camera would be DOA if they made that mistake again. Another site has reported sensors between 36 and 48MP are being tested, but they need more than  a good sensor for it to succeed. What compelling reason will they give us to use this, especially if it retains EF mount. Will they finally get serious about 4K video, what shooting speed and will the AF be competitive with the best out there like A9, will be feature rich rather than gimped in typical Canon fashion.

The good news Nikon will be first cab off the rank and it will be very interesting to see what their vision is for FF mirrorless, given they were saying they will make best camera in the market.

Jopa

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2017, 08:29:12 AM »
That's exciting. Just hope they will keep the EF mount.

dolina

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2017, 09:07:09 AM »
Unpopular opinion but is diversifying to a lot of camera SKUs really wise in a market environment that has been  shrinking for nearly a decade?
Visit my Flickr, Facebook & 500px and see my photos. :)

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2017, 09:07:09 AM »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2017, 09:17:58 AM »
Hilarious to think the 6DII sensor would even be considered. The camera would be DOA if they made that mistake again. Another site has reported sensors between 36 and 48MP are being tested, but they need more than  a good sensor for it to succeed. What compelling reason will they give us to use this, especially if it retains EF mount. Will they finally get serious about 4K video, what shooting speed and will the AF be competitive with the best out there like A9, will be feature rich rather than gimped in typical Canon fashion.

You appear to define success at being competitively spec'd.  As Canon has repeatedly shown, the best spec'd rig per dollar does not sell the best.

As much as I don't want them to do this, I have the utmost confidence that dropping the 6D2 sensor into a well designed mirrorless rig would sell just fine.  We might pillory them on a forum for doing it, but it would sell very, very well.  Hear me out.

My argument:  there is a small but growing highly energized portion of the Canon userbase that very much wants a mirrorless rig beyond what EOS M can do -- be it a higher-end EOS M rig or a FF rig.  Tired of waiting for Canon, they have rented (or outright bought) a competitive mirrorless rig, either a Fuji or Sony most likely.  For whatever reason, be it the Fuji sensor size or poor Sony ergonomics/controls/lens options, those systems do not completely scratch the itch for them and they have either lived with multiple systems (and pined for one to unite them all) or they simply returned to Canon for its lenses, ergonomics, reliability, etc.

The take-home message here?  There are folks who love Canon for everything it offers more than the value proposition / potential return of investment of moving to a new system.  Canon owns these people.  Anything basically competent and well-designed that Canon offers will have these folks pre-ordering on day one.

That is why a 6D2 sensor dropped into a mirrorless rig -- be it a nice thin one that someday might adapt Nikkor or Canon FD glass OR a full EF mount design that is a seamless 2nd body for the hordes of current Canon FF shooters -- would sell just fine.

- A

jolyonralph

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2017, 09:39:25 AM »
That's exciting. Just hope they will keep the EF mount.

I think a new mount is more and more likely.

The majority of buyers won't have an arsenal of old lenses they want to use, and they have to consider how to market a new camera vs competition from Nikon, Sony, etc.

A heavier camera using heavier lenses and, added to this, a bunch of these lenses (with older focusing motors) that really don't perform as well as they should on mirrorless either due to focus speed or due to noise - this will not do well for Canon in the inevitable head-to-head reviews.  Sure you'll buy one, but will anyone else?

I'd be twice as likely to buy a camera with a new mount than with EF.
Jolyon Ralph

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Re: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2017, 09:39:25 AM »