November 24, 2017, 10:56:59 PM

Author Topic: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D  (Read 5590 times)

drmikeinpdx

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2017, 05:44:33 PM »
If you want to keep it small and light, the "18-55mm F3.5-5.6 STM" is a bargain. Focus is much faster than the pancakes and the image stabilizer is great. Stopping down 1 stop, the image is sharp from corner to corner. It may not look so perfect on an APS-C 24 megapixel camera, but no zoom lens achieves this feat when pixel peeping.

My 18-55 is a really old, non-STM version that is quite unsharp even at F/8.  It has been carried around a lot on various kinds of trips so maybe it's just getting old.  I recall thinking that my copy worked pretty well back when it was mounted on an 8 Megapixel body so that tells you how old it is.

I like that physical size/weight and zoom range, so I should probably get my hands on a new copy and try it out.

Does anyone else like the current EF-S 18-55 STM lens?
Current bodies:  5D3, 77D, T5i, S100, S90
Lenses: 24-70 L2, 135 f/2.0 L, Tamron 85 f/1.8, 200 f/2.8 L, 50 f/1.2L, 24-105 L, 70-200 f/4 L, 35 f/2 IS, 24 pancake, EF-S 18-135,
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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2017, 05:44:33 PM »

BillB

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2017, 08:48:21 PM »
If you want to keep it small and light, the "18-55mm F3.5-5.6 STM" is a bargain. Focus is much faster than the pancakes and the image stabilizer is great. Stopping down 1 stop, the image is sharp from corner to corner. It may not look so perfect on an APS-C 24 megapixel camera, but no zoom lens achieves this feat when pixel peeping.

My 18-55 is a really old, non-STM version that is quite unsharp even at F/8.  It has been carried around a lot on various kinds of trips so maybe it's just getting old.  I recall thinking that my copy worked pretty well back when it was mounted on an 8 Megapixel body so that tells you how old it is.

I like that physical size/weight and zoom range, so I should probably get my hands on a new copy and try it out.

Does anyone else like the current EF-S 18-55 STM lens?

Check the photozone review of the lens.  They like it a lot

Maximilian

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 09:30:28 AM »
...
Does anyone else like the current EF-S 18-55 STM lens?
I own the 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM from the kit I bought with the 100D.
I like it for it's versatility but the IQ is average. It definetly falls behind the pancakes.
But I'll take it with me from time to time when fast zooming is more important than IQ.

Please note that there is a new 18-55mm 1:4-5,6 IS STM as well.
sometimes you have to close your eyes to see properly.

wsmith96

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 07:11:50 PM »
Does anyone else like the current EF-S 18-55 STM lens?

I got one recently paired with a refurb 80D.  Amazingly the price was the same with or without the lens, so why not get it.   I keep it for my kids, but I did test it out and I was relatively pleased with it.  Not a replacement for my 17-55 or 24-105, but the quality really isn't that bad at all.

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old-pr-pix

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 08:57:42 AM »
I feel the 15-85 is a excellent all around lens, I recently bought a used one for $350.
+1
My copy has been excellent - no extensive testing, but it easily equals my 24-105L for crop body duty.  Only annoyance is zoom creep which I suppose could be fixed but I haven't bothered.  I haven't had any issues in light rain, but it isn't weather sealed.

Someone suggested the Sigma 50-100 Art... not a 'walk around' lens in my opinion.  Great lens, but heavy/massive/too long FL for 'walk around' duty IMHO.
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ahsanford

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2017, 10:54:02 AM »
Someone suggested the Sigma 50-100 Art... not a 'walk around' lens in my opinion.  Great lens, but heavy/massive/too long FL for 'walk around' duty IMHO.

+1, that thing is about as heavy as a 70-200 2.8!

I personally see 'walkaround' and think something in the range of a standard zoom on FF, say 24-70, 24-105, 24-120, etc.  It could be a little longer, it could be a little shorter, it could even be a prime -- but it should be a general purpose FL, and it shouldn't weight a ton for a day of carry around the neck/shoulder.

For me, that's either of my 28 or 35 non-L IS primes or my 24-70 f/4L IS -- unprepared for what is coming or what I might see, those three lenses let me capture the most.  If I'm in cities or in a lot of interiors all day (foreign city tourism immediately comes to mind), I'll often stretch my rules a bit and carry the 16-35 f/4L IS as a walkaround lens.

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snegri45

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2017, 04:08:02 PM »
I have been using Digital Rebels since the original 6.3 megapixel version which came with the original 18-55 mm kit lens, and I found the lens to be OK.  Over the following 14 years I have upgraded my Rebels and also my kit lens(es).  My walk-around kit is 10-18, 18-55, 55-250, and the 50/1.8 on an SL2.  All the lenses are the IS/STM versions, (except of course the 50), and they are small, light, and inexpensive.  I am amazed at the quality Canon has been able to cram into these small wonders.  And this is coming from someone who also shoots with a 5Dsr, 10 white lenses, and 5 additional L lenses.

Ansel Adams, who of course is best known for his large format images, also shot extensively with his Hasselblads.  Reportedly, when asked what was the best camera format, he answered "The one you have with you."  And I strongly buy into that philosophy.  I checked weights some time back, and if memory serves me correctly my whole kit weighs about the same as the 100-400mm lens (which is the FF equivalent of the 55-250mm).  To weigh me down a bit further I also carry two Speedlites and a controller.

With this kit I can cover almost anything and if need be, at a professional level.  Would it be QUITE as good as my 5D III and a handful of L glass?  No.  But unless the two images are next to each other you would be hard pressed to say "This is an unsatisfactory image, shot with an inferior kit lens."  I would suggest to the OP that he should try the current 18-55 and do some pixel peeping.  Then he can decide if the lens gives the quality he feels he needs.  I always think it is better to have a quite good picture rather than missing a perfect photo because you went home early with an aching back caused by too heavy a camera bag!

Further to the less-is-more approach I have acquired an M5 and some lenses.  With its long zoom I give up 20% on long end as well as a 1/3 of a stop, but these are sacrifices I am willing to make.  For the M system I would like some more primes, a 30/32/35mm f/1.8/2.0, a 50/55mm f/1.8/2.0, and ideally an 85mm f/2.0/2.4/2.8.  At that point the M system would become my walking-around system due to it being smaller and lighter again than the SL system.

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2017, 04:08:02 PM »

aceflibble

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2017, 02:07:28 PM »
I'd put forward the Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4 Macro OS. It's sharper across the frame than the Canon 17-55 f/2.8 IS is at f/2.8 and f/4 (at f/5.6 they're dead even in the centre, and the Sigma is slightly ahead in the far corners) and it has less vignetting and the transmission is a little more accurate to what the f-stop indicates (the Canon is half a stop slower than the f-stop indicates; the Sigma is a third of a stop slower than its f-stop).
It does have slightly more distortion at the wide end, but it has less at the long end. The 'macro' the lens claims is only halfway to macro, and the lens is fairly soft when you're focused that close. But it's better than not having the option at all, I guess. It's about 2/3rds the size, nearly half the weight, and roughly (depends on country) half the price. For an upgrade to the Canon kit lens, specifically for a 'walkaround' lens, it's really hard to make a case for anything above the Sigma 17-70.

Most important in my experience with them, it doesn't have the inconsistent focus of the Sigma 18-35mm. It's not as sharp as that lens is, either, but sharpness means nothing if your image is plain ol' out of focus. Sigma's 'Art' lenses are optically great, but the focus is all over the place with every copy I've ever used, of any of them. (And speaking to other pros and users, it seems to be the standard experience with them.)

If you really need the most light at the long end, Canon's EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS is definitely the best choice for a travel/all-rounder zoom on an APS-C body; the Sigma 17-70, despite the more truthful transmission, is still slower at that end of the zoom range. You're getting half a stop less light than you think you are, but half a stop down from f/2.8 is still pretty good. It's also a bit large and quite expensive for an EF-S lens, but it's tough and it'll keep more value if you ever resell it.

If you want lots of light but don't care about the long end of the zoom range, the Sigma 18-35 sure is tempting, if you think you can live with the slightly dubious focusing. Nobody can dispute that it'll get the most light to your sensor, and 18-35 isn't actually too bad a range for general travel and day shooting. I just could never get past the inconsistent focusing (AFMA doesn't help as it's not a consistent front or back focus issue, but both at random; the Sigma dock can only lightly mitigate the issue, too) and the size and weight definitely does make it a little travel un-friendly.

If you do want that longer end of the zoom range and you can live with it being that one stop slower, then the Sigma 17-70 is the way to go; it wins on size by far and it only loses in sharpness to other larger, more limited, more expensive, Sigmas.

 
Alternatively, there are a few primes worth looking at. If you like that EF-S 24mm, you could take a look at its bigger cousins, the 24mm f/2.8 IS, the 28mm f/2.8 IS, and 35mm f/2 IS, as wlel as the Tamron 35mm f/1.8 VC. They're bigger than the pancake 24, obviously, but still small enough to be balanced on a smaller APS-C body. They're equally as sharp as the EF-S 24, better corrected than it, obviously a little more solidly-built, and they all have IS; obviously those 35mms also gives you an extra stop. (And unlike all the above zooms and the EF-S 24mm pancake, these four primes' transmission actually matches their f-stop, so you're getting all the light you expect.) The Tamron has the added bonus of being fully weather sealed, though that comes at the cost of a little more size and weight. Any prime in the 24-35mm range will work well as an all-purpose travel lens.

Of course, you could also simply add the 40mm f/2.8 pancake lens to the 24mm. Then you've got a standard view (38mm equivalent; close enough to the true standard of 43mm) and a mild telephoto in a pair that takes less space than any other one prime.

 
It's really hard to recommend things like the Sigma 50-100 as others have done, let alone some of the full Canon L lenses that have been brought up. They're just miserable to travel with, let alone the balance on the smaller body and the reality that they don't actually get you any better image quality or even much better functionality. Go for one of the big Ls if you really want the absolute most rock-solid build quality and full weather sealing and you're willing to accept the price you pay in size and weight for that; if all you're after is better optical quality, the Ls are a huge red herring.
If you want significantly better optical quality than the above small APS-C zooms and primes give and you want to keep to a lower size then it's time to pick up a mirrorless Sony, Panasonic, or Fuji camera.

AJ

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2017, 07:53:27 PM »
I have a Tamron 17-50/2.8 (non-VC) which is every bit as sharp as Canon 17-55/2.8 (which I also own) but much smaller and lighter.

I have heard okay things about the Canon 15-85 which has the ideal focal lengths for a walkabout lens.  Maybe Canon will give this thing an update one of these days.

tiggy@mac.com

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2017, 08:34:55 PM »

But holy hell, does Canon need something reliably 'better than kit' in crop here.  A simple enough EF-S 17-55 f/4 USM would do wonders.  Just a basic, sharp, constant aperture instrument that doesn't take two days to focus. Sell it for $499.  But I'm guessing Canon wants you to long for an $$$ EF zoom / climb up to FF and may never release a ring USM EF-S lens again.

- A

They outsourced their better than kit crop to Sigma and Tamron. And following on that, you should consider the Tamron 35 1.8 VC. Nice little lens that is practically macro. Super light, and sharp. And, by the way, not just for crop.

drmikeinpdx

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2017, 01:16:19 PM »
Thanks for all the advice!  I've made a list of the lenses I'm interested in

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II,  200 grams, $109 white box/amazon

Canon EF-S 15-85 IS USM,  575 grams, $799 new

Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4 Macro OS, with dock, 535 grams  $499 new

Given the cheapness and lightness of the Canon EF-S 18-55, I may just order one now and take a chance that the image quality will be an improvement over my ancient copy of the same lens.

Update:  I decided to order the white box Canon kit lens for $109 USD from Amazon.  If it isn't sharp enough for my needs, I have photographer friends who can use it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 07:32:03 PM by drmikeinpdx »
Current bodies:  5D3, 77D, T5i, S100, S90
Lenses: 24-70 L2, 135 f/2.0 L, Tamron 85 f/1.8, 200 f/2.8 L, 50 f/1.2L, 24-105 L, 70-200 f/4 L, 35 f/2 IS, 24 pancake, EF-S 18-135,
blog:   http://www.BeyondBoudoirPhoto.com

drmikeinpdx

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2017, 01:36:52 AM »
OK, I received my white box copy of the Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II and did some quick testing with a black and white resolution target.

The new copy is slightly sharper and more contrasty than my decade-old copy, but not by much.  Like the older version, stopping down one stop gives a small increase in sharpness, but further stopping down does not help.  It just isn't very sharp at any aperture or focal length. 

This kit lens doesn't even come close to matching the resolution of the current 24 megapixel APS-C sensors.  The only good thing is that you don't have to worry about autofocus accuracy!  LOL

My 24 and 40mm pancake lenses are looking better and better.    :)

I will keep it around and use it on my old T5i when I'm going somewhere that puts the lens at risk.
Current bodies:  5D3, 77D, T5i, S100, S90
Lenses: 24-70 L2, 135 f/2.0 L, Tamron 85 f/1.8, 200 f/2.8 L, 50 f/1.2L, 24-105 L, 70-200 f/4 L, 35 f/2 IS, 24 pancake, EF-S 18-135,
blog:   http://www.BeyondBoudoirPhoto.com

mb66energy

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2017, 05:47:24 AM »
OK, I received my white box copy of the Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II and did some quick testing with a black and white resolution target.

The new copy is slightly sharper and more contrasty than my decade-old copy, but not by much.  Like the older version, stopping down one stop gives a small increase in sharpness, but further stopping down does not help.  It just isn't very sharp at any aperture or focal length. 

This kit lens doesn't even come close to matching the resolution of the current 24 megapixel APS-C sensors.  The only good thing is that you don't have to worry about autofocus accuracy!  LOL

My 24 and 40mm pancake lenses are looking better and better.    :)

I will keep it around and use it on my old T5i when I'm going somewhere that puts the lens at risk.

After consulting the great the-digital-picture.com - website I have seen that your lens should be better at the wide end compared to the current EF-S 4.0 18-55 while the current lens wins at the tele end. @55mm it uses maybe 10 out of 24 MPix which is good but not stellar.

But: I am too impressed how good the shorty fourty works with my 200D / SL2, it is much better (fine detail, contrast) than the EF-S 4.0 18-55 which I bought with the body. But I really like the EF-S 60mm macro lens which has f/2.8 + very good IQ at 24Mpix straight from max aperture. It is still compact and light and ... has a distance scale which I like much better than these swampy STM focus rings and more the lack of distance information (maybe in viewfinder during focusing?). Not to forget the 1:1 macro capability.

Waiting for the f/4.0 20-60 IS with 1:3 max reproduction and good stills + video AF as the standard zoom at 600 EUR with stellar IQ in all departments. But maybe I have to learn how to print one on my 3D printer because no one will produce one - just kidding.
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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2017, 05:47:24 AM »

drmikeinpdx

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2017, 12:15:45 AM »
I like the shorty 40 too!  Today I did some nice scenic work with it on the 77D. 

Right now my favorite 77D kit includes the 24 and 40 pancakes as well as the plasticky EF-S 50-250 IS.   It's quite sharp for a cheap zoom, quite light, much sharper than the 18-55 kit lens for some reason, and the stabilization seems to work well. 

I need to figure out a good bag to carry this combination.  I should have something around here that would be appropriate.
Current bodies:  5D3, 77D, T5i, S100, S90
Lenses: 24-70 L2, 135 f/2.0 L, Tamron 85 f/1.8, 200 f/2.8 L, 50 f/1.2L, 24-105 L, 70-200 f/4 L, 35 f/2 IS, 24 pancake, EF-S 18-135,
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NancyP

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2017, 10:40:40 PM »
EF-S 15-85 is a great one-lens solution for most situations. For ultra-light, I use the 24 and 40 mm pancake lenses despite my real hatred of using the focus-by-wire when I need manual focus. The pancake lenses have the best ratio of image quality to cost of any lens out there. The 40 rivals my Sigma 35 f/1.4 if both are at f/4 to f/11.

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Re: Recommend an upgrade from EF-S kit lens for 77D
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2017, 10:40:40 PM »