December 17, 2017, 08:45:53 AM

Author Topic: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]  (Read 36876 times)

Aaron D

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 04:08:53 PM »
Now we're talking AH!

If I were designing a mirrorless camera, I'd find some middle ground between a FF DSLR body and an M body.  When I look at a 5D, I see a bulge directly behind the mount--if that bulge were to go away, meaning put the mount surface just above the body at it's thinnest, you've already made the camera thinner.  Sure the grip is still as big, but the thing slips into a case easier now!  But go a step further--remove that bulge AND keep the grip's forward protrusion BUT make the body a little thinner and now you've IMPROVED the fingernail against body clearance!  OR protrude the grip behind the thinner body Ala Hasselblad XD-1 and voila!

And then put the eyepiece in the corner like a Fuji SE so that top bump is gone.  I don't think I'd loose any sleep over an off center eye-piece--but I don't to speak for anyone else.

OK now I need to do something useful.  Not that this isn't of course.

A

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 04:08:53 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2017, 04:27:48 PM »

So why not this scheme? 
(Brand names 100% negotiable, don't get wrapped around that axle)

6DM = Thin Mount / Adaptor for the 'keep it small' / non EF adapting lens types / mirrorless enthusiasts -- this will get the obligatory 3-5 smaller lenses just for that mount: 

     24 f/2 or 35 f/2
     50 f/1.8
     24-50 f/4
     16-35 f/4
     Perhaps a macro like the crop illuminated ones -- not a 100, but something 35-50-ish

     + adapt all of EF
     + adapt Nikkor (third party adaptor required)
     + adapt vintage stuff (third party adaptor required)
     + speedboost

5DM (or 5DSM if you like) = Full EF Mount / No adaptor for professionals, wedding folks, enthusiast wildlifers/birders, etc.  Those folks get the big bodies with larger batteries, top LCD, thumb wheel, big grip, etc.

1DXM = waaaaaaay down the road if this strategy takes off.  I appreciate this is the class of camera likely to require you to pry their OVF out of their cold, dead hands, but pitching the mirror is one way to help up the fps...

Would that work?

- A

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2017, 04:37:21 PM »
Canon does have a patent for EF / EFs adapter to a new undisclosed FF mirrorless lens mount.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26883.0



There is another patent for helping with shallow light ray angles to the edges of a sensor.
http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=09601534

Field of the Invention

The present invention relates to a solid state image sensor,
a method of manufacturing a solid state image sensor, and an
image capturing system.

Description of the Related Art

Solid state image sensors and display apparatuses use
optical elements such a microlens array as disclosed in
Japanese Patent Laid-Open No. 2007-335723. Japanese Patent
Laid-Open No. 2007-335723 discloses a technique of
providing microlenses, each having a shape called a teardrop,
in a solid state image sensor to efficiently focus light
entering from oblique directions onto light-receiving units.
Such a microlens is shaped to have a curved shape tapering
to the outside of the solid state image sensor and having a
vertex at an outside end portion when viewed in a planar
view.

BillB

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2017, 04:39:36 PM »
I'd pre-order the fixed lens one right now.

'5D4-quality' sensor (30 MP not a must)
+ fixed 28mm f/2 or 35mm f/2 lens (IS nice but not a must)
+ sealed design
+ decent EVF with MF peaking (or other MF assistance)
+ DPAF + touch LCD to select AF point while my eye was at the EVF
+ nice diminutive build (fixed lens = jettison any full EF discussion, the body will 100% be thin)
+ sensibly not tiny grip + Canon ergonomic/control DNA (+ thumb wheel?)

= a perfect travel camera for me.  (I do love me a 28-35mm FF FOV and wouldn't feel handcuffed with that choice.) 

It would effectively be an RX1-like rig with Canon control DNA, a better grip, better color, and DPAF.

I'd honestly consider buying one provided Canon doesn't go insane and ask $4k for it. 

- A

A fixed lens design might be an easier way to role out a curved sensor.

danski0224

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2017, 04:43:37 PM »
I'd never buy a Canon FF mirrorless that requires an adaptor for EF lenses.

I'd be willing to bet that a Canon EF mount mirrorless camera will follow the general path that Sigma took with their sd Quattro cameras as far as sensor flange distance is concerned.

There is no business reason for Canon to market a mirrorless camera designed to work with adapted lenses (unlike Sony). Nor does it make sense for Canon to create and release a whole new type of lens mount for a "full frame" product.


Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2017, 04:56:19 PM »
In this 2014 Photokina interview, Mr. Masaya Shinoda of Canon says that they are considering a new lens mount.  Considering the time it takes to develop a new mount and turn it into a new system, a 2018 introduction seems reasonable.  A adapter patent was also released around the same time.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdc.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fdocs%2Fnews%2Finterview%2F20140918_667456.html&edit-text=

ahsanford

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 05:01:29 PM »

I'd be willing to bet that a Canon EF mount mirrorless camera will follow the general path that Sigma took with their sd Quattro cameras as far as sensor flange distance is concerned.

There is no business reason for Canon to market a mirrorless camera designed to work with adapted lenses (unlike Sony). Nor does it make sense for Canon to create and release a whole new type of lens mount for a "full frame" product.

Regarding Sigma Quattro H and the 'lens tube' approach to maintain a 'full' mount with svelte overall body (in fairness that one is APS-H, not true FF), sure, that could work. 

But I disagree on the other bits.  Being able to use the Nikkor 14-24 f/2.8, 28 f/1.4, 24-70 f/2.8 VR, 105 f/1.4 without having to change systems is, in a small way, in Canon's best interests.  Consider:  how many landscapers left Canon for that Nikkor 14-24 f/2.8?  Now they wouldn't feel compelled to leave. And they don't need to pave the way for this compatibility and design an adaptor for Nikkor glass.  Just offer a thin mount and I guarantee the metabones' of the world will swoop in to fill that need.  Easy.

And of course there's value in a new thinner mount:

  • With reasonable lens FL / speed expectations, a thinner mount rig allows someone to build a considerably smaller overall lens + body combination.  It's obviously a limited slice of the lens portfolio, but see an A7RII + a 35mm f/2.8 and you'll see what I mean.  To many, this is the #1 draw of mirrorless.

  • Offering a new mount + adaptor does not mean EF is RIP.  There will be an adaptor, and possibly a full EF mount body offering alongside this skinny mount one someday.

  • Offering a new mount + adaptor does not mean all of EF must be redesigned in the new mount.  They just need 3-5 staple lenses that make the space savings pop (see my prior list above).

When I say all this, I am not pro-[thin new mount + adaptor] vs. full mount, but to declare thin new mount + adaptor as being pointless is putting blinders on to the entire current market.  Canon and Nikon don't see an A7 rig and say "Well, Sony had to do that to adapt our lenses..." -- they say "Wow!  That is small.  And there's a great FF sensor in there?".

There are two distinct camps here.  To presume one is not legitimate / not a major consideration is a very myopic view of things, IMHO.

- A
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:04:05 PM by ahsanford »

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 05:01:29 PM »

Jopa

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2017, 05:03:59 PM »
The first project is a full frame mirrorless camera with a native EF mount.

Craig, you just made my day. Thank you!

Jopa

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2017, 05:12:38 PM »
Would that work?

It would. But I need this miraculous 1dxm now lol.

AvTvM

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2017, 05:20:45 PM »
I'd never buy a Canon FF mirrorless that requires an adaptor for EF lenses.

Interesting that some people totally reject using a simple and inexpensive mount adaptor to keep legacy EF glass usable. Works perfectly well and is solid and stable. It can easily be made weatherproof and may even add a removable tripod foot to any lens ...  just like the Canon EF-/EF-M adaptor does.

"Adaptor refusal" is even more puzzling, when considering that all EF lenses are optimized for DSLR Phase-AF operation. EF glass will suffer some AF speed/performance penalty on any mirrorless camera body - just as they do in live view mode on a DSLR.

Lenses with STM and even more so Nano-USM drive can and will improve this, but currently there are only 3 "low-end" STM lenses for EF mount - 50/1.8, 40/2.8, 24-105/3.5-5.6 STM and no EF lens with Nano USM (only EF-S).   

New native mirrorless glass with AF drive optimized for mirrorless bodies' AF system [= Canon DPAF sensors] will have improved AF performance compared to using EF glass - with or without adaptor.   

If Canon indeed brings a MILC with EF mount first, people buying it may come to regret it soon, when the second MILC body/system with shorter FFD mount is released ... along with new mount native glass ... with better AF performance. Maybe crafty Canon is even counting on this to happen.  ;)

preppyak

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2017, 05:43:13 PM »
Yes, Sony will have released 10 models by then, and they will still all be crap.  What does that tell you? :(
That you've never used one of them. If Sony fills in a few more budget prices lenses (plus Sigma doing FE mount) before Canon nails mirrorless, it'll be over in that space for Canon.

danski0224

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2017, 05:49:39 PM »

I'd be willing to bet that a Canon EF mount mirrorless camera will follow the general path that Sigma took with their sd Quattro cameras as far as sensor flange distance is concerned.

There is no business reason for Canon to market a mirrorless camera designed to work with adapted lenses (unlike Sony). Nor does it make sense for Canon to create and release a whole new type of lens mount for a "full frame" product.

Regarding Sigma Quattro H and the 'lens tube' approach to maintain a 'full' mount with svelte overall body (in fairness that one is APS-H, not true FF), sure, that could work. 

But I disagree on the other bits.  Being able to use the Nikkor 14-24 f/2.8, 28 f/1.4, 24-70 f/2.8 VR, 105 f/1.4 without having to change systems is, in a small way, in Canon's best interests.  Consider:  how many landscapers left Canon for that Nikkor 14-24 f/2.8?  Now they wouldn't feel compelled to leave. And they don't need to pave the way for this compatibility and design an adaptor for Nikkor glass.  Just offer a thin mount and I guarantee the metabones' of the world will swoop in to fill that need.  Easy.

And of course there's value in a new thinner mount:

  • With reasonable lens FL / speed expectations, a thinner mount rig allows someone to build a considerably smaller overall lens + body combination.  It's obviously a limited slice of the lens portfolio, but see an A7RII + a 35mm f/2.8 and you'll see what I mean.  To many, this is the #1 draw of mirrorless.

  • Offering a new mount + adaptor does not mean EF is RIP.  There will be an adaptor, and possibly a full EF mount body offering alongside this skinny mount one someday.

  • Offering a new mount + adaptor does not mean all of EF must be redesigned in the new mount.  They just need 3-5 staple lenses that make the space savings pop (see my prior list above).

When I say all this, I am not pro-[thin new mount + adaptor] vs. full mount, but to declare thin new mount + adaptor as being pointless is putting blinders on to the entire current market.  Canon and Nikon don't see an A7 rig and say "Well, Sony had to do that to adapt our lenses..." -- they say "Wow!  That is small.  And there's a great FF sensor in there?".

There are two distinct camps here.  To presume one is not legitimate / not a major consideration is a very myopic view of things, IMHO.

- A

As far as the Sigma sd Quattro goes, the camera body is physically capable of supporting a full frame sensor. Sigma (presumably) did not make a "thin body" because of the processing requirements of the Foveon sensors- non-Sigma adapted lenses are known to cause varying degrees of color casts to the image. The Quattro sensor is supposedly better in this regard.

I have used a Sony A7RII and a Metabones EF adapter and the Sigma MC-11 adapter that allows the use of Sigma SA lenses.

The Sony + Metabones +Canon lens combo was quirky at best.

The Sony + Sigma MC-11 + Sigma SA lens seemed to be no different from using "native lenses"... or at least as good as Sigma lenses on a Sigma camera.

I really didn't like the "small body" though and would have preferred it to be larger.

Given the touchscreen implementation on the 1DXII (as just one example), I would not expect Canon to give photo enthusiasts what they want- a Canon mirrorless that can be adapted to many different lenses ala Sony.

However, if Canon is really behind the product this time around, I'm sure that it will be a solid performer and simply work. If the release is well executed, I would strongly consider it.

For me, it may be a moot point if the A7RIII addresses some issues and delivers on the megapixel front... and if I can swing it. I can use my Canon and Sigma lenses on a Sony- something that I would never be able to do with Canon.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:54:15 PM by danski0224 »

Aaron D

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2017, 05:53:11 PM »
I am actually in a third camp, AH: a professional who wants a small camera.  But I do architectural, so I'm a minority.  Still though, I will always keep a DSLR for the odd times I need to follow moving objects.  The beauty of a mirrorless is that I could get all the same quality as a 5D in a more compact package.

The adapter would only be required for the very few, occasional lenses that I don't use enough to justify a mirror-less specific lens.  And I'll try not to leave it at home--like everything else I shouldn't forget.  Like memory cards which also are not permanently fixed to the camera.

But I see the closer flange distance as a means to a smaller set of TS lenses.  As Mt Spokane said, they've got the angle of incidence thing figured out, now they can go the route of Rodenstock W lenses (or pick your manufacturer) with a symmetrical design that hovers the inside element right over the sensor.  And no bulging front element (17 mm TS) so you can use filters!  And, yeah maybe only a handful of lenses would benefit from a mirrorless specific design, but that's all I use is a handful of wide angle lenses.  Mostly.

In my own personal humble opinion the fixed EF-on-mirrorless argument is nonsense.  If you want seamless, stick to DSLRs.  Mirrorless serves a different purpose, it won't replace DSLRs.  Immediately anyway.

A

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2017, 05:53:11 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2017, 06:03:15 PM »
Lenses with STM and even more so Nano-USM drive can and will improve this, but currently there are only 3 "low-end" STM lenses for EF mount - 50/1.8, 40/2.8, 24-105/3.5-5.6 STM and no EF lens with Nano USM (only EF-S).   

Not true.  EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS II USM is a nano lens.

- A

JohnDizzo15

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2017, 06:34:56 PM »
My interest is definitely piqued. But my gut tells me (based on company track record) that it will not be something that is compelling enough to bring me back to a Canon body.

There are three things that I can already be pretty certain of:

1. Canon will dumb down or omit a to be determined number of features so as to not cannibalize their other high end lines
2. IBIS, if present, will only be for video
3. At present, the Sony ecosystem is blown wide open since it has had some time for third party companies to work on accessories and other components to play within the system. Canon will not be seeing any of this in any expeditious fashion.

I know I don't speak for the average user. But I am a hobbyist/enthusiast who loves photography as well as tinkering with things. Sony allows me infinite possibilities to tinker with what already exists for their FE mount.

With the A9, I've now got something that I am happy with in all the categories that matter to me in a mirrorless body. Battery life is insanely good, ergonomics are great, AF is the best I have ever used to include eye-AF with adapted lenses as well as with my old m42 screw mount lenses now with the Techart Pro adapter, buffer is massive and general speed of operation is insanely good, amongst other things. In a nutshell, Sony gave us the whole enchilada that a mirrorless camera could provide with the tech that is currently available to the consumer market.

I know there are plenty of users that don't want to fiddle with adapters. But the market has shown that there are plenty of people that are more than happy to do it. Otherwise, we wouldn't be seeing more and more companies producing them along with the development of new types.

People will ultimately vote with their wallets. Personally, it would just take an exorbitantly huge effort and change of philosophy from Canon to convince me to drop several thousand on a Canon body moving forward.

For the record, I was a Canon body shooter for a long time and continue to respect their business model as it is clearly very successful. However, their body offerings no longer pique my interest enough to get me out of my seat with credit card in hand.

Side note, I still own and love many EF lenses and would be happy to buy a revolutionary Canon mirrorless body for them to play together natively. Keyword being revolutionary. lol.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 06:37:00 PM by JohnDizzo15 »

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2017, 06:34:56 PM »