December 16, 2017, 01:40:11 PM

Author Topic: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump  (Read 18941 times)

glness

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2017, 01:47:28 PM »
I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife.  The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!

A few thoughts:

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?!  It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument.  I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig.  Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

2) I keep hearing the 5DS AF needs to be improved on this thread, and I'll continue to ask how a system largely identical to the 1DX1 / 5D3 is letting photographers down.  I'm not saying you're incorrect here -- I'm looking for what's missing from your perspective.  Do you want more points, better spread across the frame, better tracking, etc?  (Again, I'm not dismissing your point -- I want to understand the deficiency better.)

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument.  I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R).  But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps.  50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is.  I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model.  We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2.  We may never know.

- A

Thank you - A, I appreciate your response.

1) Your right! It hasn't been a first choice for wildlifers, but the problem is Canon doesn't have a high MP option for wildlife photographers and Nikon has had this for years with two superb options: First the 36-MP D810 and now the 45-MP D850 with up to 9 FPS (with battery grip). Maybe Canon needs two cameras here: one that competes with D850 and another high MP "studio" camera. If Nikon can presently get 9 FPS at 45 MP, I have to believe Canon can get 10 FPS or more at 50 MP by next year.

2) The AF on the 5DS R is very good. I think they would simply need to employ the AF that is already utilized on the 1DX II and it would be even better.

3) I agree. It seems that Canon doesn't want to offer this option. I can't understand why. With their new chip technology, their incredible lens selection, and resources as a market leader, they could excel. For decades, Canon has sold its brand as "Wildlife As Canon Sees It." I would think they would want to be the leader here, yet they seem to be conceding that ground to Nikon. When—not if—Sony completes its supertelephoto lens offerings, cameras like the A9 and probably the expected new A7RIII will most likely also be other compelling choices for wildlife photographers.
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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2017, 01:47:28 PM »

Sharlin

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2017, 01:57:39 PM »
3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument.  I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R).  But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps.  50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is.  I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model.  We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2.  We may never know.

I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.

The thing with the 5Ds is that basically any nontrivial increase of resolution and fps makes the throughput jump to levels totally unprecedented in the Canon world. I tried a few different values and at 60Mpix, only a really modest increase to 5.5fps made much sense given the trends. Of course it might be that this time Canon will surprise all of us, but that would be, as I said, totally unprecedented. (I also plotted my guesses for the 7D3 and the 90D: 24Mpix*12fps and 28Mpix*8fps respectively. Full data available here.)

« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 02:02:26 PM by Sharlin »

Mikehit

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2017, 03:25:21 PM »


A few thoughts:

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?!  It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument.  I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig.  Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

2) I keep hearing the 5DS AF needs to be improved on this thread, and I'll continue to ask how a system largely identical to the 1DX1 / 5D3 is letting photographers down. I'm not saying you're incorrect here -- I'm looking for what's missing from your perspective.  Do you want more points, better spread across the frame, better tracking, etc?  (Again, I'm not dismissing your point -- I want to understand the deficiency better.)

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument.  I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R).  But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps.  50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is.  I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model.  We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2.  We may never know.

- A
When it comes discussion like this, people don't think about how a camera does or does not meet their needs because what they want to see is a spec sheet that is competitive with the competition.

Even in this thread people have spoken about 'being competitive' as if merely matching the opposition is enough. On the 5DIV and 6DII threads how many times did we read "I don't use video myself but they have to include 4k". It almost becomes meaningless.
Canon has always done what Canon does, yet people stay with them. Mixed messages or what?

ahsanford

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2017, 03:39:17 PM »
1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?!  It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument.  I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig.  Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

I feel same as I said before for the D810 -- it was no wildlife camera.  You might reel in great shots with it, but at 5 fps in FF, you will miss moments.  But I'm seeing a trend here with both the D810 and D850 being referenced: it appears you value detail over FPS disproportionately to most wildlifers I've corresponded with.  Most of them want detail of course, but value cleaner high ISO and higher FPS.

So your 'grass is greener' with the D850 comments make perfect sense for your needs.  Thanks for clarifying.

- A
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 03:48:38 PM by ahsanford »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2017, 03:47:37 PM »
I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.

Lovely chart -- thank you and bookmarked.

Yes, the 5D# gets one top-line DIGIC while the 7D# line and 5DS line -- two completely different animals at different price points -- warrant two.  I have ranted about this many a time.

"The 7D line needs to burn through files to keep up with that shutter/mirror box, so it must get two!"

"But the 5DS can't just get one, it would only shoot 2-3 fps in that case.  That's too slow!"

Yet the 5D line isn't afforded the same courtesy and the 5D4 now sits...

(only) 2.0 fps ahead of a high res behemoth in the 5DS
(only) 0.5 fps ahead of a $2k enthusiast FF rig
2.0 fps behind a direct competitor... who is moving 50% more pixels to boot
7-9 fps behind the next option up the FF chain

Surely, a 30 x 9 product -- likely requiring another chip -- would have better cemented the longer-term value of the 5D4 to the market and better positioned it vs. the 6D2 and 5DS.  I still don't see that as a thread to 1DX2 sales.

But this is a 5DS thread.  I'll rant no longer.   :)

- A

AlanF

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2017, 04:19:58 PM »
1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?!  It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument.  I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig.  Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

I feel same as I said before for the D810 -- it was no wildlife camera.  You might reel in great shots with it, but at 5 fps in FF, you will miss moments.  But I'm seeing a trend here with both the D810 and D850 being referenced: it appears you value detail over FPS disproportionately to most wildlifers I've corresponded with.  Most of them want detail of course, but value cleaner high ISO and higher FPS.

So your 'grass is greener' with the D850 comments make perfect sense for your needs.  Thanks for clarifying.

- A

It is not universally true that wildlifers go for higher FPS and cleaner high iso over detail. It depends in what they are interested. Art Morris, a doyen of bird photography, uses a 5DIV as he specialises in bird portraits.  Ari Hazeghi specialises in BIF and uses a 1DXII  but concedes the usefulness of the 5DIV. Like many, if not most birders 90% of my shots are portraits not BIF. Follow our Bird Portraits thread and see that very few of the shots there depend on high FPS.  I grab my 5DSR when I want the best detail or have to pick out distant birds. I tend to use a 400mm DO II with or without extenders, and this is a game changer for choice of bodies. The bare prime on the 5DSR at f/4 gives as good resolution as the lens plus 1.4x extender on the 5DIV at f/5.6, and has 1 stop advantage in either iso or shutter speed. Similarly, the 5DSR at 560mm f/5.6 has better IQ than the 5DIV with 800mm at f/8, and 1-stop advantage. The 5DSR with the 100-400mm II gives better IQ than the 400mm prime on the 5DIV.
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traveller

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2017, 07:56:28 PM »
I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.

Lovely chart -- thank you and bookmarked.

Yes, the 5D# gets one top-line DIGIC while the 7D# line and 5DS line -- two completely different animals at different price points -- warrant two.  I have ranted about this many a time.

"The 7D line needs to burn through files to keep up with that shutter/mirror box, so it must get two!"

"But the 5DS can't just get one, it would only shoot 2-3 fps in that case.  That's too slow!"

Yet the 5D line isn't afforded the same courtesy and the 5D4 now sits...

(only) 2.0 fps ahead of a high res behemoth in the 5DS
(only) 0.5 fps ahead of a $2k enthusiast FF rig
2.0 fps behind a direct competitor... who is moving 50% more pixels to boot
7-9 fps behind the next option up the FF chain

Surely, a 30 x 9 product -- likely requiring another chip -- would have better cemented the longer-term value of the 5D4 to the market and better positioned it vs. the 6D2 and 5DS.  I still don't see that as a thread to 1DX2 sales.

But this is a 5DS thread.  I'll rant no longer.   :)

- A
You've hit the nail on the head. Had Canon done a little more with the 5D4 specs, they would have found positioning the 6D2 a lot easier. A 9-10fps 5D4 with a better video spec and extra 'goodies' that are a bit more useful than dual pixel raw has turned out to be, would also now be looking like a stronger proposition alongside the D850.

The impact this will likely have on the 5DS2 is that Canon reused the 5D3 body for the 5DS(R) (with dual digic and a few minor mods), so that's what's likely to happen again with the 5DS2. Maybe they can at least fit a tilting screen (if not fully articulated, due to button positioning issues), but I'm not holding my breath. Items like a bigger viewfinder and newer storage media will likely have to wait until the 5D mark 5 generation.

Personally, I think that this is all a little too slow and stodgy, but no doubt the sales figures will prove me wrong!

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2017, 07:56:28 PM »

goldenhusky

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2017, 09:34:49 PM »
I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
DPAF
Touchscreen

and here is my wishlist
60MP
7FPS
DR >= 5D4
Better high ISO performance
AF performance >= 1Dx2
Bigger buffer
cFast & SD UHS3 - I guess SD UHS3 is less likely
Focus stacking
USB 3.1
Vari-Angle - I guess this is also less likely

I would trade my 5D4 even if canon delivers the top 4 items on my wishlist.

Exactly the set of things that mean relatively little to me as a 5Ds user - sounds more like features for the 5D mk5 (apart from the 60MP)

Could this be why I have a 5Ds not a 5D4?  ;-)

5D5 with 7fps would be outdated on day one but the speed at which Canon adopting technology lately. I would not be surprised what you said becomes true :-)

goldenhusky

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2017, 09:38:29 PM »
I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
DPAF
Touchscreen

and here is my wishlist
60MP
7FPS
DR >= 5D4
Better high ISO performance
AF performance >= 1Dx2
Bigger buffer
cFast & SD UHS3 - I guess SD UHS3 is less likely
Focus stacking
USB 3.1
Vari-Angle - I guess this is also less likely

I would trade my 5D4 even if canon delivers the top 4 items on my wishlist.

And how much do you want to pay for that beast?
A camera that has a sensor with 3 times the resolution of the 1Dx2, a sensor with higher DR than the 1Dx2 and better AF than the 1Dx2.
There are wishlists and there are fantasies.

Given what D850 is capable of and 5DsR is a $3900 body, to me what I wish for is a realistic ask. Note that I did not ask for any video features.

symmar22

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2017, 04:09:57 AM »
I use my 5DSr for its originally intended purpose (studio, architecture, interiors) on a tripod in 95% of the time. The improvements I'd like to see are mainly in the sensor tech (on chip ADC that should clean up those shadows) and improvements on the DR side. Time to move on to modern sensors Canon !

 I Thinks 50Mp is pretty decent already, for studio/tripod use one doesn't need many fancy features. I came to the conclusion that a swivel screen could be very useful in my case. As a bonus, faster cards (Cfast and UHS-2) are IMO a must.

Anything else would be just for the fun.

However, considering the competition from Nikon and Sony spec wise, I hope Canon feels a bit more uncomfortable than usually, and will this time release a camera with more than minor improvements. Nikon proved despite their financial problems that they can still deliver that kind of camera with the D850, and no doubt the Sony A7R3 (or A9R) will be impressive.

The 6D2 was not so impressive, and IMO it was a very bad move from Canon to use a cheap sensor.

Competition in industry is the only way to move, as seen recently with the Intel / AMD struggle. Intel has been delivering the same CPU with minor updates since 6 or 7 years (that's a century in computer tech), claiming that they can't do better due to technical problems.
Last summer AMD released their excellent Ryzen series for half the price of their Intel equivalents.

As a result, Intel launched within 3 months a new i9 series to compete with the Ryzen, and finally offers CPU with more than 4 cores for the masses. They could have done it before, but they didn't, only competition forced them to move their butt. A big thanks to AMD to have unlocked the CPU race again, as I am very happy Nikon delivered such a nice camera.

Hopefully the Nikon D850 and the Sony A7R3 (A9R) will have the same effect on Canon's marketing strategy.


« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:19:16 AM by symmar22 »

jeffa4444

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2017, 12:44:50 PM »
Guess I'm going to disagree with the previous post. Ive the 5DS which I have used for wildlife in Africa, landscape and portraits both location & studio.
I don't use it on a tripod 95% of the time too restrictive for portrait shoots (I do at least two a month), I'm generally shooting with strobes so any un-sharp shots are pilot error and Ive been impressed with the 5DS for portraiture period. Last year I used it on Safari and my only real complaint was low light where the 6D did a much better job. However cropping retained so much more detail in birds (not in flight) as it did in animals that always seem closer than they actually were.
For landscape again the detail has often blown me away compared to the 6D and in these shots I'm generally on a tripod. However weight is an issue particularly when carrying gear all day so I upgraded to the 6D MKII and the bump in resolutions far out weighs any perceived loss of dynamic range (which I don't believe it has over the 6D scientifically tested). Sure the 6D MKII did not advance dynamic range over the 6D but in every other sense its a better camera and I'm really appreciating the articulating screen in low tripod use so I'm a happy camper. The 5D MKIV (which I regularly borrow from work) sits somewhere in the middle of these two and if I could only afford one camera it would be the choice. When I say sits in the middle it has better dynamic range but not as much resolution as the 5DS and lacks the articulating screen of the 6D MKII and both at times mean something to me. The 1D X MKII is THE sports photographers and News photographers choice and for good reason
This says something about Canon that they have provided this nuanced choice and any decision is a balanced one we never get everything we want in a single camera but the same is true in much more expensive high end movie cameras.

As to a MKII 5DS/r. Better low light performance with less noise has to be the No.1 goal as is any overall improvement in dynamic range at least matching the 5D MKIV on which it will almost certainly share much with. Other than that only a slight MP jump as we should not forget its not simply the camera but system performance meaning the lenses as well. 
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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2017, 01:35:33 PM »
I grab my 5DSR when I want the best detail or have to pick out distant birds. I tend to use a 400mm DO II with or without extenders, and this is a game changer for choice of bodies. The bare prime on the 5DSR at f/4 gives as good resolution as the lens plus 1.4x extender on the 5DIV at f/5.6, and has 1 stop advantage in either iso or shutter speed. Similarly, the 5DSR at 560mm f/5.6 has better IQ than the 5DIV with 800mm at f/8, and 1-stop advantage. The 5DSR with the 100-400mm II gives better IQ than the 400mm prime on the 5DIV.
Exactly, pixels win. And it matters in real life photography.

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2017, 03:49:12 PM »

1) Your right! It hasn't been a first choice for wildlifers, but the problem is Canon doesn't have a high MP option for wildlife photographers and Nikon has had this for years with two superb options: First the 36-MP D810 and now the 45-MP D850 with up to 9 FPS (with battery grip). Maybe Canon needs two cameras here: one that competes with D850 and another high MP "studio" camera. If Nikon can presently get 9 FPS at 45 MP, I have to believe Canon can get 10 FPS or more at 50 MP by next year.


You will need more than FPS, you need buffer.  The IDx M2 is a spoiler.  Basically unlimited buffer.  Okay perhaps not unlimited but a reasonable sized buffer than clears quickly.  The first will require more RAM, the second may be harder without a CFast card.


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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2017, 03:49:12 PM »

infared

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2017, 10:41:14 AM »
3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument.  I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R).  But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps.  50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is.  I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model.  We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2.  We may never know.

I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.

The thing with the 5Ds is that basically any nontrivial increase of resolution and fps makes the throughput jump to levels totally unprecedented in the Canon world. I tried a few different values and at 60Mpix, only a really modest increase to 5.5fps made much sense given the trends. Of course it might be that this time Canon will surprise all of us, but that would be, as I said, totally unprecedented. (I also plotted my guesses for the 7D3 and the 90D: 24Mpix*12fps and 28Mpix*8fps respectively. Full data available here.)

I like my 5DIV....the shutter speed is ok with me...I do not shoot a lot of sports and if I do I have a mirrorless that I shoot with a lot of the time that has incredible burst but smaller image capture.......but I think there is validity to your thinking for a 2nd processor..
...but Canon is never one to WOW me...for the most part...they have always been restrained. That is why I am not on the edge of my seat for their possibly 3 new FF mirrorless cameras. I am not expecting to be WOWed...but ya never know.
I would be happy if Canon had just done a simple thing...offered the 5DIV with and without AA filter.
I know it is something small...but it would make a difference for larger prints.
Backlit keys would be a very nice little perk as I do shoot a lot of Astro. I do not need a huge magapixel camera ...Canon was right when they put the 5DIV together for me. The  "all rounder" approach works.
It's a great time to be a photographer and there are many great machines to pick from. It's pretty cool.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 10:49:31 AM by infared »
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Jopa

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2017, 12:01:50 AM »
I use my 5DSr for its originally intended purpose (studio, architecture, interiors) on a tripod in 95% of the time.

The 5dsr has less "APS-C" megapixels compared to the 80d, you can definitely use it off a tripod.

The improvements I'd like to see are mainly in the sensor tech (on chip ADC that should clean up those shadows) and improvements on the DR side.

I think you just asked the same thing twice? :)

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Re: Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2017, 12:01:50 AM »