November 20, 2017, 08:15:20 PM

Author Topic: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs  (Read 6922 times)

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 01:46:17 PM »
I'd suggest that people navigate to the linked patent and read it, it answers most of the questions, and many assumptions are wrong.  It is pretty confusing, so plan on spending time reading it.  There are also a list of different implementations which work differently, just in case you aren't confused enough.

http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=JP&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=2017098728&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=ja&TRGLANG=en

The primary purpose of the patent is to providethe lcd panel the ability to move closer or further from the eye such that the effective diopter can match the ovf.  This is so it can be in focus for people who switch from the OVF to the LCD and don't want to put on or take off their glasses in order to do so.


I've copied a few snipets from the patent, its a very long read.

PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide a digital camera capable of reducing a difference in diopter of an external monitor with respect to an optical viewfinder when an optical viewfinder and an external monitor are used in combination. SOLUTION: In a lens exchangeable digital camera comprising an optical viewfinder 2 having an eyepiece and an external display device 1 for live view, the external display device 1 is provided with an upward jumping and rotating mechanism, And the reversing mechanism, it is possible to arrange the screen center of the external display device 1 on the upper right side of the optical viewfinder 2 as viewed from the rear

In a single lens reflex digital camera capable of interchangeable lenses, live view function is becoming popular. Conventionally, a photographer formed a light beam from a photographic lens on a focusing plate using a quick return mirror, and observed through an eyepiece through a pentaprism. On the other hand, it has recently become common to mount a function of imaging light rays from a photographing lens directly on a sensor and displaying the image information converted into an electric signal on a liquid crystal monitor or the like in real time. It is what is called live view.  [0003]
As the external monitor for the live view, a rear liquid crystal monitor of the camera is used, however, in order to improve the degree of freedom of the photographing angle and the visibility, a configuration in which the orientation of the external monitor is made variable has been proposed.

The screen center of the external monitor is located at about 167 mm from the right eye of the photographer, and the diopter at that time is 6 diopters. Consider this 6 diopters as a criterion of a distance that can not be focused closer than this, that is, a point of nearness. Individual differences are large in the neighborhood, and it moves away with age. The value of 6 diopters is a representative value for the sake of convenience only, but set the criteria for the near point for the following reasons.  -------

Both the first and second embodiments, the external monitor 1 can have a touch panel function, and it is also possible to perform the operation by touch panel instead of the button related to the camera operation. At that time, it is preferable that the operation by the touch panel is limited to when the external monitor 1 is stored on the back of the camera. This is because the external monitor itself moves in the state where the external monitor 1 is deployed, since the external monitor has a foldable mechanism, which makes it difficult to operate the touch panel.  [0058]
In the state where the external monitor is deployed, it is preferable to place alternative switches in the external monitor storage space on the back of the camera. 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 01:53:26 PM by Mt Spokane Photography »

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 01:46:17 PM »

rfdesigner

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2017, 02:08:12 PM »
... I think a lot of us have always assumed eventually the entire back of a camera would be an LCD/OLED..

I would suggest that particular route is a blind alley.

unless of course you have programmable contours otherwise you can't use it without looking at it.  There's no tactile feedback.  Which is the exact complaint I have with a few modern car systems..  on my ancient MB everything is tactile, which means I can do everything by touch without taking my eyes off the road.  In that sense cameras should be the same.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2017, 02:18:41 PM »
... I think a lot of us have always assumed eventually the entire back of a camera would be an LCD/OLED..

I would suggest that particular route is a blind alley.

unless of course you have programmable contours otherwise you can't use it without looking at it.  There's no tactile feedback.  Which is the exact complaint I have with a few modern car systems..  on my ancient MB everything is tactile, which means I can do everything by touch without taking my eyes off the road.  In that sense cameras should be the same.

Although my gut feeling is the same as yours, in practice, I find myself using the touch interface on my 5D IV and SL2 almost exclusively, so in practice, my gut feeling is not panning out.  I think that Canon has really done a fantastic job with the human interface on the touch screen, its very intuitive.  So, young people who are used to touch on their smart phones are going to feel at home with Canon's touch in the future.  There are so many things I like about the touch screen that they override the few things I don't like.  I hated trying to push the zoom pution multiple times, now its just a pinch gesture to magnify the screen and move to the area I want to see, really fast and easy.

rfdesigner

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2017, 02:28:54 PM »
... I think a lot of us have always assumed eventually the entire back of a camera would be an LCD/OLED..

I would suggest that particular route is a blind alley.

unless of course you have programmable contours otherwise you can't use it without looking at it.  There's no tactile feedback.  Which is the exact complaint I have with a few modern car systems..  on my ancient MB everything is tactile, which means I can do everything by touch without taking my eyes off the road.  In that sense cameras should be the same.

Although my gut feeling is the same as yours, in practice, I find myself using the touch interface on my 5D IV and SL2 almost exclusively, so in practice, my gut feeling is not panning out.  I think that Canon has really done a fantastic job with the human interface on the touch screen, its very intuitive.  So, young people who are used to touch on their smart phones are going to feel at home with Canon's touch in the future.  There are so many things I like about the touch screen that they override the few things I don't like.  I hated trying to push the zoom pution multiple times, now its just a pinch gesture to magnify the screen and move to the area I want to see, really fast and easy.


intersting.

I have the mousepad on my laptop set to "plain vanilla", no pinch, no tap, just plain move the pointer.  I find my fingers always judder across touch screens so they then think I'm clicking everything and go uttely bonkers...
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unfocused

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2017, 03:17:52 PM »
... I think a lot of us have always assumed eventually the entire back of a camera would be an LCD/OLED..

I would suggest that particular route is a blind alley.

unless of course you have programmable contours otherwise you can't use it without looking at it.  There's no tactile feedback.  Which is the exact complaint I have with a few modern car systems..  on my ancient MB everything is tactile, which means I can do everything by touch without taking my eyes off the road.  In that sense cameras should be the same.

Although my gut feeling is the same as yours, in practice, I find myself using the touch interface on my 5D IV and SL2 almost exclusively, so in practice, my gut feeling is not panning out.  I think that Canon has really done a fantastic job with the human interface on the touch screen, its very intuitive.  So, young people who are used to touch on their smart phones are going to feel at home with Canon's touch in the future.  There are so many things I like about the touch screen that they override the few things I don't like.  I hated trying to push the zoom pution multiple times, now its just a pinch gesture to magnify the screen and move to the area I want to see, really fast and easy.

I think we are talking about apples and oranges.

A touch screen is very useful for reviewing images and for navigating through menus. Much more intuitive and easier than punching buttons.

Buttons, click wheels and joysticks are much more useful when one is shooting through an optical viewfinder. The tactile feedback is important when one can't take their eyes off the subject.

Diko

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2017, 04:00:29 PM »
I use quite two rear buttons where I have assigned the focus and the other one is used with the top dial to change ISO. I love it because on both occasions I don't need to see, but to feel the button's whereabouts. If I understand correctly the second button would be history.

Don't like it!
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BroncosFan

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2017, 05:23:21 PM »
A really interesting concept.

With the monitor in the up position, you have full access to the rear thumbwheel etc, and you have all the shooting info displayed on the screen, which you can look down at, when the camera is hanging from your neck. This makes the little LCD panel on the top plate obsolete, making space for an improved button / dial layout.

And of course you can switch it into live view or replay mode, as well as use it to dspaly shooting info.

The screen then folds back down and reverses to protect it from damage when the camera is packed.



Brilliant. Innovation, at last.


I don't see how the screen would flip in to protect the touch surface with the hinge being off center like it is.

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2017, 05:23:21 PM »

BroncosFan

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2017, 05:29:52 PM »
This looks awful! Pleeeeez don't mess up my 7D III with this! Don't mess with one of the only things that has kept me a Canon user over the last few years which are the ergonomics and functionality. A simple tilt out screen, ala D500 is more than fine. If you want to innovate start with the sensor not the body. Or just start using Sony sensors, it's ok, we'll still love you in the morning.

old-pr-pix

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2017, 06:38:36 PM »
As someone who is both left-handed and left eye dominant I'm having a tough time envisioning how I'd adapt to anything like this.  At least as shown it seems to be even more right-hand oriented than today's dSLR.  On the other hand, it seems obvious from smartphone sales that people like screens as large as can be held with one hand.  Combine that with the engineering knowledge that buttons and dials are more expensive to design, make weather-proof and manufacturer compared to touchscreens and firmware and it becomes obvious that at some point the buttons and dials are likely to be minimized if not eliminated. 
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Talys

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 06:39:10 PM »
I kind of hate this.

You have to flip this screen up and out in order to have access to the controls on the back of the camera?

So, for everyone who complains about the supposed fragility of a flip screen, imagine having to have the screen always flipped out in order to have access to the controls on the back of the camera.


I hate it too.  This is like having permanent field monitor... or something.  The thing on the top looks like it'd just be in the way more than anything, and having all that extra stuff north of the eyepiece just to get to back controls makes no sense.

Anyways, I don't really like flip-up screens anyhow; I think fully articulating is just vastly superior, and I far prefer flip to the side.

As someone who is both left-handed and left eye dominant I'm having a tough time envisioning how I'd adapt to anything like this.  At least as shown it seems to be even more right-hand oriented than today's dSLR.  On the other hand, it seems obvious from smartphone sales that people like screens as large as can be held with one hand.  Combine that with the engineering knowledge that buttons and dials are more expensive to design, make weather-proof and manufacturer compared to touchscreens and firmware and it becomes obvious that at some point the buttons and dials are likely to be minimized if not eliminated.

I'm ok with a model of camera with no buttons and dials on the back to make way for a bigger screen.  I mean, I wouldn't buy one, but I get it.

I think it's crazy to hide buttons and dials behind the screen in the back, though :D

Then again, it's just a patent, not a product.  At this point, it's no more than a drawing to ensure that someone else doesn't actually capitalize on this strange idea, though I think Canon should be thankful if someone else does.

+1. with on camera flash attached, how one supposed to flip the screen up and not get the flash in the way?

You need to watch more CSI.  Real photographers use macro flashes for everything.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 06:41:52 PM by Talys »

Gnocchi

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2017, 10:25:36 PM »
I wonder where they may or may not go with this? It would be kind of good if they could some how implement the touch and move focus system (like the m5) onto a dslr with some kind of overlay in the ovf. This would then give you up to 80% coverage of the sensor with dpaf. I imagine they might have some sort of touch and drag aperture wheel set up on that back screen as well. Who knows?

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2017, 10:54:20 PM »


I think we are talking about apples and oranges.

A touch screen is very useful for reviewing images and for navigating through menus. Much more intuitive and easier than punching buttons.

Buttons, click wheels and joysticks are much more useful when one is shooting through an optical viewfinder. The tactile feedback is important when one can't take their eyes off the subject.


No argument there.  I've been using live view and dpaf as much as possible, for most cases its fast enough, but the ovf certain lt gets used, and then, its buttons and the joystick.  So far, I use them heavily for products where the lcd is a advantage.

Talys

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2017, 12:45:36 AM »


I think we are talking about apples and oranges.

A touch screen is very useful for reviewing images and for navigating through menus. Much more intuitive and easier than punching buttons.

Buttons, click wheels and joysticks are much more useful when one is shooting through an optical viewfinder. The tactile feedback is important when one can't take their eyes off the subject.


No argument there.  I've been using live view and dpaf as much as possible, for most cases its fast enough, but the ovf certain lt gets used, and then, its buttons and the joystick.  So far, I use them heavily for products where the lcd is a advantage.

Exposure settings are handled much better by dials than onscreen, though, even when you're using a liveview shoot.  It's painless to quickly and accurately set aperture and shutter using dials, and even to a lesser extent ISO -- way, way faster than tapping all over the screen.  Another critical back button for me is AF.  I'd be lost without at least those 2 dials and button as physical controls, even on liveview shooting.

I'm also a big fan of the directional pad or dials for navigating config menus.  That's just preference, though.

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2017, 12:45:36 AM »

Viggo

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2017, 05:17:39 AM »


I think we are talking about apples and oranges.

A touch screen is very useful for reviewing images and for navigating through menus. Much more intuitive and easier than punching buttons.

Buttons, click wheels and joysticks are much more useful when one is shooting through an optical viewfinder. The tactile feedback is important when one can't take their eyes off the subject.


No argument there.  I've been using live view and dpaf as much as possible, for most cases its fast enough, but the ovf certain lt gets used, and then, its buttons and the joystick.  So far, I use them heavily for products where the lcd is a advantage.

Exposure settings are handled much better by dials than onscreen, though, even when you're using a liveview shoot.  It's painless to quickly and accurately set aperture and shutter using dials, and even to a lesser extent ISO -- way, way faster than tapping all over the screen.  Another critical back button for me is AF.  I'd be lost without at least those 2 dials and button as physical controls, even on liveview shooting.

I'm also a big fan of the directional pad or dials for navigating config menus.  That's just preference, though.

Exactly, the whole point of a pro body is being able to control everything with the eye to the VF, and have responsive buttons with feedback. And try using touch screen with rain and snow and gloves, no thanks :P
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jolyonralph

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2017, 05:53:01 AM »
Exposure settings are handled much better by dials than onscreen, though, even when you're using a liveview shoot.

I used to think this was obvious, plain common sense, especially as someone who's been shooting with SLRs for a long time.

But the reality is that when the touch screen controls are done right that actually no, it turns out to be MUCH easier to control these things from the touch screen while doing liveview.

Please forgive the heresy, but it's true.

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Re: Canon Patent: New Rear Screen Concept for DSLRs
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2017, 05:53:01 AM »