December 18, 2017, 12:07:59 PM

Author Topic: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]  (Read 11461 times)

JoSto

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 04:10:28 AM »
I own the Sigma 150-600 f6.3 C and even without the firmware-upgrade (which I will update soon) it is a very solid performer. Used at f7.1 it is sharp enough for the high-density sensor of the Canon 7D mark II. The IS is good, I regular shoot static birds at 1/250s. The Focus feels fast and build quality is equal with the cheaper L-Series Lenses from Canon (100mm macro, 16-35 f4 IS).

With the price at about 900€ incl. sales tax its a _very_ strong offering. As I do not expect a new Canon non-L lens to outperform the sigma there is no reason to jump back to canon. The real difference between f6.3 and f5.6 ist not that big to alone justify a purchase.

I would love to get a Canon 200-600 f5.6 L with all the quality from the 100-400 mkII and real 600mm focal length. Would pay about 3.5k € for it. But I dont expect it to come because it would seriously harm all the big white primes and kill the much more expensive 200-400. Alone for the saved weight every nature fotographer would buy it.
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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 04:10:28 AM »

hne

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 04:38:02 AM »
Canon is making its own glass, they might have figured out a way to make large enough glass cheap enough for a budget-friendly lens.

Except...

The referenced Japanese patent application 2015-212724 mainly talks about video use and the ability of the lens design to enable minimal variation of aberrations when focusing, while keeping the lens compact and internally zooming/focusing. It adds no image stabilisation. The lens design is based on all the large front facing elements being spherically ground for the largest image height. But that still isn't covering a full 24x36mm sensor. The examples show back focus that either wouldn't fit an EF or EF-S mount and the one that would is large enough to comfortably fit both B4 and PL mount.

That patent is not a design for a budget birders. I would bet it being a lens in a box-shaped housing for broadcast cameras on heavy tripods, commonly seen covering major sports events. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if the price tag of a lens built under protection of that pattern ends up costing $50'000.
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Sharlin

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 04:57:09 AM »
Canon has made several EF-M lenses with max aperture of f/6.3 at the long end, and the EOS 80D and higher can focus at f/8 (will probably carry to lower lines eventually), so I can see how Canon will release a cheapo super tele to keep in with the competition.

EF-M can do f/6.3 AF easily due to image sensor AF (AFAIK in bright light live view AF still functions at f/11 albeit not necessarily reliably).

f/8 AF already dribbled down to Rebel level; the 800D/T7i has the exact same AF functionality as the 80D. Indeed, as of now all current Canon bodies except the 200D and the 1300D can AF at f/8 at least with the center point.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 04:59:40 AM by Sharlin »

Ladislav

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 06:25:56 AM »
I was waiting for such lens for so long that I ended with Sigma 150-600C. Yes, image stabilization at least on my copy is not very good and AF is so-so for moving subjects (although programable switch with customizable focus distance limiting helps a lot). The point is - it is a lens I'm already enjoying without waiting years for Canon to make a move.

I'm much more reluctant to upgrade a lens I already have then to buy a lens for usage I don't have yet covered, so Canon would have to release something absolutely amazing with great value for money to make me think about the switch.

I somehow doubt Canon is going to release anything I would consider amazing to not compete with existing 100-400L II. I expect some downsides in the new lens which will not be just about build quality and weather sealing - that will make motivation to switch from Sigma less likely to happen.

I would be much more interested if it was L lens - something like 200-500L IS 5.6 optimized to work well with 1.4 extender but that is a dream which will not happen and if it ever happens it will not be cheap. Depending on quality it would either compete with 100-400 or 200-400 and that's why I don't see this lens coming.
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-1

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 07:33:29 AM »

EF 600mm f/5.6 IS long end + competitive in price to the Sigma/Tamron = CR2? Unless it's a plastic fantastic with STM and a bone simple design and construction, I don't see how that's possible. 

Canon would have to give this lens away at non-existent margins (much like I suspect Nikon is doing the same with their 200-500 5.6 VR).

Consider me exceptionally skeptical of this rumor.  I think this a longer-than-400mm zoom is in development, but it'll end up being one of these instead:

  • An EF first to allow f/6.3 max aperture (to keep that entrance pupil smaller and less expensive)
  • Shorter than 600mm long end, 500 f/5.6 could be possible in a cheaper lens (ask Nikon)
  • ...or it will be 100-400L II level in quality and cost a mint, say $3k

The competitor would likely not be the Siggy C but Sport, sans weather sealing and the Nikkor...

unfocused

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2017, 09:52:35 AM »
Some of the logic being used here is...well...just not logical.

Will Canon produce an inexpensive 200-600mm lens to compete against Sigma and Tamron? Possibly. But why? Are they really worried about losing out on the virtually non-existent profit margins that such lenses would offer Canon? With these lenses having been on the market for several years now, most buyers would have to switch from an existing version to the Canon and that switch only happens if the Canon is clearly better. Unlikely to occur at that price point.

On the other hand, a 500mm or 600mm "L" zoom would certainly attract people who have accepted the compromises that the Sigma and Tamron lenses require, but would prefer a better, sharper, faster-focusing native glass lens.

The main arguments against it on this forum seem to be that this lens would undercut other offerings. That argument simply doesn't hold water if you consider it for just a moment.

Undermine sales of the 100-400 II? It's going to cost more than the 100-400 II. So Canon loses sales on a cheaper lens to make sales on a more expensive lens. That's a good trade.

Undermine sales of hugely expensive big whites or the 200-400 f5 teleconverter zoom? If the price is reasonable Canon will sell 1,000 of these lenses for every one lost sale of a big white. That's a good trade.

The only question is the sweet spot between price point and focal length. I think the market could sustain a price point as high as $3,000 for a 500mm f5.6 zoom or $3,500 for a 600mm f5.6 zoom. But, can they build a 600mm f5.6 zoom for $3,500? I don't know.

Release a 200-500mm f5.6 "L" zoom at $2,900, in conjunction with a 7DIII with improved sensor, multiple f8 focus points (allowing a 1.4 converter) and 12 fps and people will line up to buy that combination.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:54:42 AM by unfocused »

reef58

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2017, 10:32:27 AM »
Canon would have to give this lens away at non-existent margins (much like I suspect Nikon is doing the same with their 200-500 5.6 VR).

Consider me exceptionally skeptical of this rumor.

A 600 f5.6 requires an apparent aperture of over 107mm (exactly the same as a 300mm f2.8 ) a 500 f5.6 can get by without 'bending the figures' with a smaller than 90mm apparent aperture. There is no way on earth Canon can be competitive with a 200-500 in a 200-600 of the same aperture. They can't fudge the figures like the third parties do either.

In my opinion that leaves a 200-600 f5.6 >$4,000 'cheap lens' option and a 200-500 f5.6 $2,500 competitive option. You can't make a 107mm front element down to the price range of a 90mm front element out of anything but the bottom of a beer glass, and that would suck anyway.

You can buy a 4" APO refractor nowadays for less than $1000 (ED Glass), so it can be done on a budget.

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2017, 10:32:27 AM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2017, 10:42:24 AM »
Canon would have to give this lens away at non-existent margins (much like I suspect Nikon is doing the same with their 200-500 5.6 VR).

Consider me exceptionally skeptical of this rumor.

A 600 f5.6 requires an apparent aperture of over 107mm (exactly the same as a 300mm f2.8 ) a 500 f5.6 can get by without 'bending the figures' with a smaller than 90mm apparent aperture. There is no way on earth Canon can be competitive with a 200-500 in a 200-600 of the same aperture. They can't fudge the figures like the third parties do either.

In my opinion that leaves a 200-600 f5.6 >$4,000 'cheap lens' option and a 200-500 f5.6 $2,500 competitive option. You can't make a 107mm front element down to the price range of a 90mm front element out of anything but the bottom of a beer glass, and that would suck anyway.

You can buy a 4" APO refractor nowadays for less than $1000 (ED Glass), so it can be done on a budget.

Hmm, so $1,000 for the big bit of glass and a tube that doesn't focus much closer than the moon and has an image circle smaller than APS-C?

Makes my figures sound even more realistic  ;)
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Talys

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2017, 11:14:40 AM »
Release a 200-500mm f5.6 "L" zoom at $2,900, in conjunction with a 7DIII with improved sensor, multiple f8 focus points (allowing a 1.4 converter) and 12 fps and people will line up to buy that combination.

Canon needs a cheap competitor to the Nikon 200-500.  It doesn't matter if it's great (the Nikon isn't); it does matter that it's cheap, because this attracts people to the Nikon system as a lens that is made for hobbyists but marketed as good enough for pros (even though it isn't).

What people who are already in the hobby want in that space want is a superior lens to the Sigma 150-600, at a price that they can afford.  There's a big difference between USD $2k, $3k, and $4k in terms of affordability.  If they could price it similarly to the 100-400LII, that would definitely get a lot of love, and it would NOT rob sales from it, because there's no way a 600mm is going to be a small, 1.6kg lens with a short MFD.

ahsanford

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2017, 11:15:35 AM »
I would be much more interested if it was L lens - something like 200-500L IS 5.6 optimized to work well with 1.4 extender but that is a dream which will not happen and if it ever happens it will not be cheap. Depending on quality it would either compete with 100-400 or 200-400 and that's why I don't see this lens coming.

Yet Nikon is selling just that for $1400 right now.  We can argue how 'L' that lens is, but Nikon found a way to offer something.  I still contend that the Nikon lens (and the threat of body sales lost to the D500) is the bigger threat to Canon than any lens-only dollars lost to Sigma or Tamron.

But I agree a 200-500 5.6 zoom of any sort is a threat to 100-400 sales.  Canon could nerf the lens / move it downmarket in comparison with a plasticky 200-600 f/5.6-8 IS sort of offering, provided they fully implement f/8 throughout the SLR line, but as many have said here, Canon holds a famously hard line on EF/EF-S narrowest max aperture being f/5.6 so that every lens works on every body.

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jolyonralph

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2017, 11:18:14 AM »
It's not just Canon playing around with a 200-600 lens idea.

https://www.dailycameranews.com/2017/11/sony-fe-200-600mm-lens-works/
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MrFotoFool

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2017, 11:31:07 AM »
This is one I will be following, as I would like a long lens for occasional wildlife (my only current telephoto is 70-200). If there is any validity to the rumor, it says unequivocally that it will NOT be an L, yet people are still speculating and hoping that it will be. It seems the non-L designation is the most solid part of the rumor. A zoom that goes to 600 would interest me more than one that goes to 500.

MrFotoFool

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2017, 11:33:48 AM »
And just to show how long this has been rumored, here is an article stating it will be revealed at Photokina 2016!
https://www.dailycameranews.com/2016/04/canon-ef-200-600mm-f4-5-5-6-lens-price-leaked/

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2017, 11:33:48 AM »

Don Haines

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2017, 11:34:26 AM »
Canon holds a famously hard line on EF/EF-S narrowest max aperture being f/5.6 so that every lens works on every body.

Exactly!

They could make a F6.3 or slower lens,  but "every EF lens works on every EF body" means a lot to Canon, particularly when you look across the table to Nikon and Sony and drive yourself insane trying to keep track of what lenses work on which bodies.... simple and understandable translates into increased sales.....
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Don Haines

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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 11:37:16 AM »
My prediction here....

It will be a 75-400 F5.6 lens.
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Re: Another Mention of a Canon Non-L Telephoto Zoom [CR2]
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 11:37:16 AM »