December 12, 2017, 07:10:26 PM

Author Topic: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]  (Read 11727 times)

ahsanford

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2017, 07:13:57 PM »
Rent the Tamron 45mm 1.8 VC and see how it works for you and whether you can live with the chromatic aberration issues (can be cleaned up in post) - which will depend on your shooting style/uses of the lens. It seems like a relatively compact lens for being a 1.8.

Appreciate it -- but I've considered it.

3rd party AF on a lens wider than f/2.8, especially one that isn't slated for tripod landscape work = absolutely no sale.

And as for size, as you'll see, there is double gauss and there is not double gauss.  That Tamron is considerably longer than even the f/1.2L II.  'Smaller than the Arts/Otuses of the world' is not necessarily that small.

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2017, 07:13:57 PM »

blobmonster

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2017, 08:18:24 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I can see the need for a new 50mm f1.4 replacement in the lineup, but I don't see it as all that necessary compared to the one big hole in Canon's arsenal. :)

I'm speaking of course, of a relatively small, lightweight, good quality, flare resistant approx 20mm prime lens. Canon simply doesn't have an answer to Nikon's new 20mm f1.8 G.

I already own the  24-70L mark I for years, but am transitioning to primes for pleasure. My preferred lengths are 20,35 and 85. The crops available from high MP cameras mean you can crop pictures from a 35mm to become a 50mm equivalent, 50-85, from an 85 to a 135 etc, without the need to carry a big zoom, and with the advantage that the fast aperture prime will have better depth of field control than a zoom while still having adequate resolution even after cropping.

The Canon 20mm usm f2.8 is a great lens when used well, but there's no getting round its flare.

I really hope Canon will introduce a 20mm (or 16-19mm) prime, preferably with IS. I would take this in preference to the 16-35 f4 IS since it would fit in my pocket, probably have a wider aperture, and make sure I frame the ultra wide photo properly rather than use zoom badly - which I am prone to until I get more experience with ultrawide composition. A 20mm has a notably different aspect to a 24mm or 14mm therefore it is a big gap for Canon. I can't yet justify the 14mm f2.8 or 17mm TSE as a beginner ultrawide photographer (the 17 SE is pretty big too), and the 17-40L used is almost the same price as the 20mm usm used. It therefore feels wrong to put money down on the old 20mm which has inferior image (in many situations) and build quality.

So here's hoping for a new Canon 20mm f2.8 usm is. 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 08:23:55 AM by blobmonster »

Maximilian

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2017, 09:06:45 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I can see the need for a new 50mm f1.4 replacement in the lineup, but I don't see it as all that necessary compared to the one big hole in Canon's arsenal. :)

I'm speaking of course, of a relatively small, lightweight, good quality, flare resistant approx 20mm prime lens. Canon simply doesn't have an answer to Nikon's new 20mm f1.8 G.

[snip]
Hi blobmonster!

Canon has a EF 20mm f/2.8 USM for less than 500 $/€. It's old, its optical performance is so-so but there isn't a real hole - although every FL could be and should be improved by time.
But I don't expect a non-L lens in this UWA range wider than f/2.8, so all you'd get would be a successor of that mentioned lens. I haven't seen a UWA picture where f/1.8 was necessary yet, but I am not into astro.
I don't know if the Nikon is performing well here, but a short google say it's so-so wide open.

If we now compare the market of a general purpose (FF and APS-C, her more to portrait) lens like a EF 50/1.4 to a EF 20/2.8 or even /1.8, I'D say that the later is a real specialist with a small market.
So if it comes to improving those lenses I'd say: begin with the standard FL and later care for the specialists.
But as you can see, Canon yet does neither  ::)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 09:54:55 AM by Maximilian »
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BillB

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2017, 09:16:56 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I can see the need for a new 50mm f1.4 replacement in the lineup, but I don't see it as all that necessary compared to the one big hole in Canon's arsenal. :)

I'm speaking of course, of a relatively small, lightweight, good quality, flare resistant approx 20mm prime lens. Canon simply doesn't have an answer to Nikon's new 20mm f1.8 G.

I already own the  24-70L mark I for years, but am transitioning to primes for pleasure. My preferred lengths are 20,35 and 85. The crops available from high MP cameras mean you can crop pictures from a 35mm to become a 50mm equivalent, 50-85, from an 85 to a 135 etc, without the need to carry a big zoom, and with the advantage that the fast aperture prime will have better depth of field control than a zoom while still having adequate resolution even after cropping.

The Canon 20mm usm f2.8 is a great lens when used well, but there's no getting round its flare.

I really hope Canon will introduce a 20mm (or 16-19mm) prime, preferably with IS. I would take this in preference to the 16-35 f4 IS since it would fit in my pocket, probably have a wider aperture, and make sure I frame the ultra wide photo properly rather than use zoom badly - which I am prone to until I get more experience with ultrawide composition. A 20mm has a notably different aspect to a 24mm or 14mm therefore it is a big gap for Canon. I can't yet justify the 14mm f2.8 or 17mm TSE as a beginner ultrawide photographer (the 17 SE is pretty big too), and the 17-40L used is almost the same price as the 20mm usm used. It therefore feels wrong to put money down on the old 20mm which has inferior image (in many situations) and build quality.

So here's hoping for a new Canon 20mm f2.8 usm is.

Good luck on the 20mm prime.  One advantage to the 16-35 is that you can actually buy one now.  I got mine when it came out and it doesn't spend much time in my pocket.  Mostly it is on my camera.  You are right about the challenge of composing when you are working with a wide angle.  One of the things I really like about the zoom is being able to play with different focal lengths without swapping lenses. Having a 16-35 is like having a whole bagful of wide angle lenses without the hassle of swapping them on and off the camera.  A 20 and a 35 would cost more than the 16-35, so having the 16-35 is like having a 16, 24 and 28 for free.

Random Orbits

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2017, 09:33:35 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I can see the need for a new 50mm f1.4 replacement in the lineup, but I don't see it as all that necessary compared to the one big hole in Canon's arsenal. :)

I'm speaking of course, of a relatively small, lightweight, good quality, flare resistant approx 20mm prime lens. Canon simply doesn't have an answer to Nikon's new 20mm f1.8 G.

I already own the  24-70L mark I for years, but am transitioning to primes for pleasure. My preferred lengths are 20,35 and 85. The crops available from high MP cameras mean you can crop pictures from a 35mm to become a 50mm equivalent, 50-85, from an 85 to a 135 etc, without the need to carry a big zoom, and with the advantage that the fast aperture prime will have better depth of field control than a zoom while still having adequate resolution even after cropping.

The Canon 20mm usm f2.8 is a great lens when used well, but there's no getting round its flare.

I really hope Canon will introduce a 20mm (or 16-19mm) prime, preferably with IS. I would take this in preference to the 16-35 f4 IS since it would fit in my pocket, probably have a wider aperture, and make sure I frame the ultra wide photo properly rather than use zoom badly - which I am prone to until I get more experience with ultrawide composition. A 20mm has a notably different aspect to a 24mm or 14mm therefore it is a big gap for Canon. I can't yet justify the 14mm f2.8 or 17mm TSE as a beginner ultrawide photographer (the 17 SE is pretty big too), and the 17-40L used is almost the same price as the 20mm usm used. It therefore feels wrong to put money down on the old 20mm which has inferior image (in many situations) and build quality.

So here's hoping for a new Canon 20mm f2.8 usm is.

I was hoping that Canon would do a refresh for the 20 f/2.8 and 50 f/1.4 after the 24 f/2.8 IS, 28 f/2.8 IS and 35 f/2 IS lenses came out, but it hasn't yet.  The 35 f/2 IS is well regarded and is popular, but I wonder how popular the 24 and 28 f/2.8 IS lenses are.  They are nice and compact, but I only pick them when I'm going out with a single lens or paired with the 50 f/1.8 for an ultra-compact kit.

My guess is that the 20 f/2.8 is not a big seller for Canon, and after the 16-35 f/2.8 III and 16-35 f/4 IS were released, the place for the 20 f/2.8 is further diminished.  It looks like Canon went the IS route rather than Nikon's f/1.8 route, so the natural successor would be a 20 f/2.8 IS.  It also seems like the 20 and 28mm focal lengths are more popular with Nikon shooters than Canon shooters because Nikon does support multiple options at those focal lengths, whereas Canon has better/multiple options at 24, 35 and 50mm.

If you really want a 20mm prime, there is always the Sigma 20A, but that is not a small lens.

mjg79

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2017, 10:36:39 AM »
I see what I wrote about Canon not thinking there is enough of a market stirred up some controversy! I don't think there is *no* market for a new high quality 50 but that, from their actions, it is reasonable to infer that Canon has decided there isn't enough of a market (with enough of a profit margin) for them to make it a priority.

Of course Canon needs to maintain a high quality lens line-up and make sure gaps are filled whether or not that particular lens is a big seller. I am sure new 50mm lenses will come over the years. For now though there is the 50/1.2 L - yes I know in the lab it doesn't produce the sharpest results but in real world use it time and again is used by professionals to produce gorgeous photos and is in every regard better than the old 50/1.0 L.

But the fact they got a TS 50 out before another fast prime suggests strongly they think the TS will make more money. It's a unique product that they can charge a higher margin on. The 50/1.4 market is very crowded.

Someone else wrote above about Nikon's 20 1.8 lens and I agree, I would love to see Canon get a bit more aggressive with the lenses. Clearly over the past several years they have focused on two groups - the mass of consumers who want a decent 18-XX lens and also professionals who want the absolute best in a 70-200/2.8, 400 DO or 300/2.8. Even lenses like the 35L II and 100-400L II show build quality that no other manufacturer currently matches. They have their eyes on the professionals who really care about such things.

So what about that middle ground where I suspect most of us are to be found, the enthusiasts. We are certainly the loudest online but I think probably a bit smaller percentage of total buyers. But I didn't want to imply I support Canon taking so long for a modern 50/1.4 - I would be happy if there was a new lens every other week! But we have to be realistic.

Canon has been quite conservative and recent years haven't been easy for camera makers as mobile phones have destroyed the entire compact market. For the first time in years I have found myself sometimes feeling a bit jealous of some of the new Nikon glass - the 20/1.8, the 28/1.4 and the 105/1.4 in particular and it's quite an unusual position to be in as a Canon customer. And I think it's rather telling that the first 14/1.8, 20/1.4 and 24-35/2.0 were all made by Sigma and not Canon. Canon were once very aggressive in that type of exotic boundary pushing if one thinks of the 200/1.8, 85/1.2 and 50/1.0 and I would love to see them bring back some of that fire.

Canon has a history of getting there eventually though. For years we (rightly) complained about Canon's wide angle zooms as the only really decent landscape lens wide than 24mm was the TS 17. Well now we are spoilt for choice with the 16-35 IS for landscapes, the 2.8 III for photojournalism/events, the 11-24 for extremes. I'm confident when the next 50mm lens arrives it will be worth the wait.

ahsanford

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2017, 10:57:10 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I can see the need for a new 50mm f1.4 replacement in the lineup, but I don't see it as all that necessary compared to the one big hole in Canon's arsenal. :)

I'm speaking of course, of a relatively small, lightweight, good quality, flare resistant approx 20mm prime lens. Canon simply doesn't have an answer to Nikon's new 20mm f1.8 G.

Both Nikon and Canon have niche lenses that the other does not: 

Nikon:  20 1.8, 28 1.4, 105 1.4, etc.
Canon:  far too many to list

IMHO, Canon's 'hole' in the lineup around 20mm isn't necessarily the focal length itself so much as a coma-free wide prime -- a new 24 f/1.4L III with reduced coma would do just fine and serve a reportage/environmental portraiture need at the same time.

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2017, 10:57:10 AM »

JonAustin

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2017, 03:21:49 PM »
I think the 50/1.4 still sells.
Which is why this won't happen...

Canon replace the damn 50/1.4.
Once people stop buying it, or they can make more profit on a newer model, they'll consider replacing it.

As already mentioned, of course the 50/1.4 still sells, because Canon doesn't offer anything better at present (in its FL and price range). But I believe that plenty of buyers would have been willing to pony up more $$ for a version with true ring USM, updated electronics / lens coatings and IS.

A company that waited until its current model stopped selling before considering replacing it probably wouldn't be in business for very long. That's what market forecasts and strategic planning are for. Simply milking that cash cow until it dries up is not a recipe for long-term success. (And yes, I get that we're talking about one little product in just one of Canon Corporation's lines of business.)

If I had known that we still wouldn't have an AHSanford Special as 2017 draws to a close, I might have already picked up a used or refurb 50/1.2L, or bought another 50/2.5 CM when I still could (the AF on my current copy is dying). I may just bite the little bullet and pick up a 50/1.8 STM while I wait Canon out ... can anyone tell me how its AF speed compares to the 50/2.5's (in non-Macro range)?
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ahsanford

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2017, 03:52:18 PM »
As already mentioned, of course the 50/1.4 still sells, because Canon doesn't offer anything better at present (in its FL and price range). But I believe that plenty of buyers would have been willing to pony up more $$ for a version with true ring USM, updated electronics / lens coatings and IS.

A company that waited until its current model stopped selling before considering replacing it probably wouldn't be in business for very long. That's what market forecasts and strategic planning are for. Simply milking that cash cow until it dries up is not a recipe for long-term success. (And yes, I get that we're talking about one little product in just one of Canon Corporation's lines of business.)

If I had known that we still wouldn't have an AHSanford Special as 2017 draws to a close, I might have already picked up a used or refurb 50/1.2L, or bought another 50/2.5 CM when I still could (the AF on my current copy is dying). I may just bite the little bullet and pick up a 50/1.8 STM while I wait Canon out ... can anyone tell me how its AF speed compares to the 50/2.5's (in non-Macro range)?

+1 on all points.  The missing bit on the finances is that that 50 f/1.4 USM capital / tooling / process development / quality infrastructure are long, long bought and paid for, so the rate of return on that investment continues to be gold.

Canon surely has a business plan floating around that a modernization of that product will resemble any refresh -- it will cost an arm and a leg to spin everything up, so if they can't command (say) $599 for a ring USM non-L prime for more than the opening year, they may not profit as much as leaving the current ancient thing in production.

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BillB

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2017, 03:54:26 PM »
I think the 50/1.4 still sells.
Which is why this won't happen...

Canon replace the damn 50/1.4.
Once people stop buying it, or they can make more profit on a newer model, they'll consider replacing it.

As already mentioned, of course the 50/1.4 still sells, because Canon doesn't offer anything better at present (in its FL and price range). But I believe that plenty of buyers would have been willing to pony up more $$ for a version with true ring USM, updated electronics / lens coatings and IS.

A company that waited until its current model stopped selling before considering replacing it probably wouldn't be in business for very long. That's what market forecasts and strategic planning are for. Simply milking that cash cow until it dries up is not a recipe for long-term success. (And yes, I get that we're talking about one little product in just one of Canon Corporation's lines of business.)

If I had known that we still wouldn't have an AHSanford Special as 2017 draws to a close, I might have already picked up a used or refurb 50/1.2L, or bought another 50/2.5 CM when I still could (the AF on my current copy is dying). I may just bite the little bullet and pick up a 50/1.8 STM while I wait Canon out ... can anyone tell me how its AF speed compares to the 50/2.5's (in non-Macro range)?

One problem is that the current 50mm f1.4 is selling around the $330 price point and any replacement is likely to cost considerably more.  If they stop making the current 50mm f1.4, Canon has to figure out what impact this shift in price point would have on the overall revenue stream.  Some people would buy the more expensive new lens, some people would drop down to the 50mm F 1.8 STM, and some people wouldn't buy anything, making do with whatever they have.  It's not like Canon is going to be offering a better lens for the same amount of money. 

JonAustin

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2017, 06:54:36 PM »
@ ahsanford and BillB:

Fair points all, but the same arguments could have been made before each launch of a successor to an existing lens. And the increasing margins from sales of products for which the R&D, tooling, etc. have long since been absorbed begin -- at some point -- to be offset by decaying demand, sales lost to competitive, 3rd party products and -- in the case of lenses -- performance that increasingly lags behind more current glass in the product line, not to mention the every-improving resolution of the sensors behind the glass.

Without citing specific examples (laziness), we've been surprised by a few new releases in recent years, where the launch prices have been pleasingly lower than anticipated / feared. (OK, the 16-35/4 and 100-400 II are a couple that come to mind, only because I bought them.)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 06:57:37 PM by JonAustin »
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BillB

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2017, 09:08:30 PM »
@ ahsanford and BillB:

Fair points all, but the same arguments could have been made before each launch of a successor to an existing lens. And the increasing margins from sales of products for which the R&D, tooling, etc. have long since been absorbed begin -- at some point -- to be offset by decaying demand, sales lost to competitive, 3rd party products and -- in the case of lenses -- performance that increasingly lags behind more current glass in the product line, not to mention the every-improving resolution of the sensors behind the glass.

Without citing specific examples (laziness), we've been surprised by a few new releases in recent years, where the launch prices have been pleasingly lower than anticipated / feared. (OK, the 16-35/4 and 100-400 II are a couple that come to mind, only because I bought them.)

I don't know the specifics, but I wonder how much the exchange rates drive price fluctuations.  As far as lens releases are concerned, it seems to me that Canon's emphasis for quite a while has been on zooms, including inexpensive high quality EF-S and EF-M zooms.  There have also been some L's.  In addition to the ones you mentioned there is the 11-24, the 16-35 f2.8III, the 35 f1.4 II and the 85 f1.4, along with the three tilt shifts and the 24-105 II.

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2017, 01:16:26 AM »
Canon surely has a business plan floating around that a modernization of that product will resemble any refresh -- it will cost an arm and a leg to spin everything up, so if they can't command (say) $599 for a ring USM non-L prime for more than the opening year, they may not profit as much as leaving the current ancient thing in production.

You've just described the upgrade I want - refresh the 50mm f/1.4 same as the 24-28-35mm and at the same price point.

As Canon didn't carry that upgrade forward, I can only guess sales weren't as strong as it hoped for.

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2017, 01:16:26 AM »

ahsanford

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2017, 01:26:59 AM »
You've just described the upgrade I want - refresh the 50mm f/1.4 same as the 24-28-35mm and at the same price point.

As Canon didn't carry that upgrade forward, I can only guess sales weren't as strong as it hoped for.

As we've covered a few times, the 24 2.8 / 28 2.8 / 35 2.0 were a different older series of lenses than the USM primes 20 2.8 / 28 1.8 / 50 1.4 / 85 1.8 / 100 2.0.

So Canon didn't stop a line of updates, they completed the refreshing one family and we hope the other family gets a similarly nice update.

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2017, 04:18:21 AM »
You've just described the upgrade I want - refresh the 50mm f/1.4 same as the 24-28-35mm and at the same price point.

As Canon didn't carry that upgrade forward, I can only guess sales weren't as strong as it hoped for.

As we've covered a few times, the 24 2.8 / 28 2.8 / 35 2.0 were a different older series of lenses than the USM primes 20 2.8 / 28 1.8 / 50 1.4 / 85 1.8 / 100 2.0.

So Canon didn't stop a line of updates, they completed the refreshing one family and we hope the other family gets a similarly nice update.

Those are all 20+ old film era lenses, a few years don't make a big difference.

And the 85mm f/1.4L IS USM just shot any 85mm f/1.8 IS USM upgrade in the leg. Too close to f/1.4, it would hurt the f/1.4L's sales, too close to f/2.8 and it would lose to the 70-200mm L IS zooms.

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Re: We May Be Waiting a Little While Longer for a New 50mm Lens [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2017, 04:18:21 AM »