December 18, 2017, 06:15:15 AM

Author Topic: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift  (Read 5578 times)

9VIII

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 06:42:34 AM »
I've shot static landscape scenes.  Maybe two of them.  Things move, which renders this feature effectively useless outside of the studio.

I'm unsurprised that Rishi loves it, his nose is that special Sony shade of brown.

Having said that, I've used pixel shift in photomicroscopy for a long time.  It was quite innovative when implemented on my Zeiss AxioCam...around the turn of the century.

I find it kind of funny that Rishi writes:

Quote from: DPReview
What's more: Sony's recent lenses have enough resolving power to take advantage of this mode. You see the resolution increase at least partly because the lenses have enough resolving power to take advantage of the extra pixel-level sampling (theoretically, increasing the resolution of any part of the imaging chain has the potential to increase sharpness, but your lens needs to resolve enough to begin with to see the dramatic differences we're seeing here). You can't always take that for granted (see the limited increase in resolution of Pixel Shift modes on Micro Four Thirds cameras in our studio scene, for example).

even though the m43 pixel shift models show a much more dramatic increase in resolution than what Sony is showing.  They don't reach quite the same final resolution as Pentax or Sony since they're starting with a much lower resolution sensor but the increase is much more noticeable.

The worst part is that clearly the new G9 has a much better pixel shift implementation, even taking 8 shots it looks much faster than Sony’s 4 second minimum.
If the G9 has a regular 4 shot mode it’s probably much more practical (and it should be able to do regular bracketing at 60fps). Which is not to say that it negates the lack of sensor size on M4/3 (though the pixel shift does sound great for Macro, and Panasonic arguably does the best 4k), but as far as feature implementation goes Sony should be getting hammered for releasing this with such a slow shot to shot pace.

I think “shill” has become too kind of a word to describe the way DPReview behaves with Sony products.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 06:45:13 AM by 9VIII »

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 06:42:34 AM »

Mikehit

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2017, 07:15:58 AM »
One problem with FF sensor stabilisation is the momentum from the size of the sensor - it will be much easier for Panasonic/Olympus to change direction of the sensor because the sensor is one quarter the size.

No fanboy-ism, no shills needed - just plain old common sense and an understanding of high school physics.

privatebydesign

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 09:01:42 AM »
One problem with FF sensor stabilisation is the momentum from the size of the sensor - it will be much easier for Panasonic/Olympus to change direction of the sensor because the sensor is one quarter the size.

No fanboy-ism, no shills needed - just plain old common sense and an understanding of high school physics.

But a small one needs to move faster and be four times more accurate, more high school physics.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 10:16:05 AM by privatebydesign »
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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 11:02:33 AM »
I've shot static landscape scenes.  Maybe two of them.  Things move, which renders this feature effectively useless outside of the studio.

I'm unsurprised that Rishi loves it, his nose is that special Sony shade of brown.

Having said that, I've used pixel shift in photomicroscopy for a long time.  It was quite innovative when implemented on my Zeiss AxioCam...around the turn of the century.

Back in or around the early1990's, I bought a gadget at EggHead computers (remember them?)  It converted video to high resolution still images by merging multiple frames.  The principle was basically pixel shift, so a video needed to be hand held rather than on a fixed mount.  It consisted of a box with a composite video input and RS-232? output.  It required a video where the camera was held steady, but still had a slight movement, the subject could not move.  The software then merged frames to put out a image with resolutions as high as 1080 pixels.  This was just shortly before Apple released their digital camera, but put out higher resolution images when things went just right(which was not a common happening for me).   I used a Panasonic SVH-c camcorder for the video.

Mikehit

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2017, 04:35:15 PM »
One problem with FF sensor stabilisation is the momentum from the size of the sensor - it will be much easier for Panasonic/Olympus to change direction of the sensor because the sensor is one quarter the size.

No fanboy-ism, no shills needed - just plain old common sense and an understanding of high school physics.

But a small one needs to move faster and be four times more accurate, more high school physics.

And yet it appeared on MFT before FF. Go figure.

Don Haines

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2017, 04:48:15 PM »
One problem with FF sensor stabilisation is the momentum from the size of the sensor - it will be much easier for Panasonic/Olympus to change direction of the sensor because the sensor is one quarter the size.

No fanboy-ism, no shills needed - just plain old common sense and an understanding of high school physics.

But a small one needs to move faster and be four times more accurate, more high school physics.

And yet it appeared on MFT before FF. Go figure.

Yes, but if it is not on a Canon FF camera, does it really exist :)

And despite the collective internet knowledge telling us that pixel shift only works on static scenes when mounted on a super-stable tripod, there are people out there getting great hand-held results with their toy Olympus cameras..
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raptor3x

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2017, 05:24:46 PM »
One problem with FF sensor stabilisation is the momentum from the size of the sensor - it will be much easier for Panasonic/Olympus to change direction of the sensor because the sensor is one quarter the size.

No fanboy-ism, no shills needed - just plain old common sense and an understanding of high school physics.

But a small one needs to move faster and be four times more accurate, more high school physics.

And yet it appeared on MFT before FF. Go figure.

Yes, but if it is not on a Canon FF camera, does it really exist :)

And despite the collective internet knowledge telling us that pixel shift only works on static scenes when mounted on a super-stable tripod, there are people out there getting great hand-held results with their toy Olympus cameras..

I haven't seen anyone claiming to have successfully shot in HiRes mode handheld.  The current implementation are sensitive enough to motion that vortex shedding off the legs of a tripod is often enough to spoil the image when using longer lenses.
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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2017, 05:24:46 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2017, 05:56:05 PM »
One problem with FF sensor stabilisation is the momentum from the size of the sensor - it will be much easier for Panasonic/Olympus to change direction of the sensor because the sensor is one quarter the size.

No fanboy-ism, no shills needed - just plain old common sense and an understanding of high school physics.

But a small one needs to move faster and be four times more accurate, more high school physics.

And yet it appeared on MFT before FF. Go figure.

Yes, but if it is not on a Canon FF camera, does it really exist :)

And despite the collective internet knowledge telling us that pixel shift only works on static scenes when mounted on a super-stable tripod, there are people out there getting great hand-held results with their toy Olympus cameras..

I haven't seen anyone claiming to have successfully shot in HiRes mode handheld.  The current implementation are sensitive enough to motion that vortex shedding off the legs of a tripod is often enough to spoil the image when using longer lenses.

Handheld covers a wide range of stability..... some people are more stable than others, some of us like leaning against things, I like resting the camera against a tree, lamp post, building (or whatever)..... and yes, I have seen people use that technique to hand hold the Oly in high res mode....
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raptor3x

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2017, 06:11:29 PM »
Handheld covers a wide range of stability..... some people are more stable than others, some of us like leaning against things, I like resting the camera against a tree, lamp post, building (or whatever)..... and yes, I have seen people use that technique to hand hold the Oly in high res mode....

Do you have any links to examples of hand held HiRes? 
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Don Haines

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2017, 06:57:46 PM »
Handheld covers a wide range of stability..... some people are more stable than others, some of us like leaning against things, I like resting the camera against a tree, lamp post, building (or whatever)..... and yes, I have seen people use that technique to hand hold the Oly in high res mode....

Do you have any links to examples of hand held HiRes?

I could ask for the original files, but when I saw them, it was at a club slideshow and projected (and yes, I am aware of how silly it is to take a 50mpixel image, downsample it to a smaller image, and then project it onto a screen at LESS than 2K resolution)..... but hey, it was a new toy and they were happy with it 😀
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Spock

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2017, 07:16:54 PM »
Handheld covers a wide range of stability..... some people are more stable than others, some of us like leaning against things, I like resting the camera against a tree, lamp post, building (or whatever)..... and yes, I have seen people use that technique to hand hold the Oly in high res mode....

Do you have any links to examples of hand held HiRes?

I could ask for the original files, but when I saw them, it was at a club slideshow and projected (and yes, I am aware of how silly it is to take a 50mpixel image, downsample it to a smaller image, and then project it onto a screen at LESS than 2K resolution)..... but hey, it was a new toy and they were happy with it 😀

OSOK

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2017, 07:58:13 PM »
It really doesn't matter what the specific topic is regarding this camera or Sony in general, the people here will be negative, dismissive and critical. Are we to believe that NOTHING about this camera is good? That it does not have a single feature or capability that can be recognized as excellent? Or, perhaps - even better than Canon?

I've been following these threads, and the usual suspects form a hit squad of Sony bashers and make it a point to trash on the A7R3.

If this were the only site on the internet, one would come to the conclusion that the A7R3 is an overpriced piece of junk. Sony a fraudulent, dishonest company.


While it is true that this will not work with scenes containing movement - there's a lot of scenes where it will work. DPR's urban landscape is a good example. The quality improvement is stunning. Also, this makes any kind of still life that much better. Had the 5DSR have this feature, it would be praised as a worthy "studio" feature and select landscape use. Sony has it, it's criticized as useless.

It is fair to criticize the utility of this feature, but to do so to such an extreme extent shows blatant disregard for the truth. Sony isn't the only company to implement this. But when they do, it's time to downplay it.

I would not equate this to the 5D4's dual pixel raw. Dual pixel raw is truly worthless. Pixel shift is orders of magnitude more useful and practical.


SecureGSM

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2017, 08:18:02 PM »
yeah? how about an extra stop of DR that is hidden in the subrame B of the Canon DPRAW file? still worthless ?

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/Canon-dual-pixel-technology

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/canon-dual-pixel-mode-highlights-are-there





.. I would not equate this to the 5D4's dual pixel raw. Dual pixel raw is truly worthless. Pixel shift is orders of magnitude more useful and practical.

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2017, 08:18:02 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2017, 08:25:03 PM »
It really doesn't matter what the specific topic is regarding this camera or Sony in general, the people here will be negative, dismissive and critical. Are we to believe that NOTHING about this camera is good? That it does not have a single feature or capability that can be recognized as excellent? Or, perhaps - even better than Canon?

I've been following these threads, and the usual suspects form a hit squad of Sony bashers and make it a point to trash on the A7R3.

Seems you can't distinguish between disparaging the message and shooting the messenger.  Normally, the latter is frowned upon, but when the messenger is biased and has been previously shown to be a liar, the 'shooting' is justified.  So far in this thread, pixel shift has been called 'good' and 'beneficial' albeit with some major caveats around use cases – which you, in fact, acknowledge.

But perhaps we could also discuss the 'usual suspects' for whom every Canon body is crap.  The 5DIII had 'poor, sub-par, unacceptable IQ', the 6DII was a joke, etc.   Have you followed those threads, too?


yeah? how about an extra stop of DR that is hidden in the subrame B of the Canon DPRAW file? still worthless ?

More DR was useful and of incredible value...when Canon had less.  But now that Canon has effectively matched (or in the case of a properly processed dual pixel RAW file, exceeded) the DR of their competitors...yeah, DR is useless.   ;)
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raptor3x

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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2017, 08:43:23 PM »
yeah? how about an extra stop of DR that is hidden in the subrame B of the Canon DPRAW file? still worthless ?

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/Canon-dual-pixel-technology

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/canon-dual-pixel-mode-highlights-are-there





.. I would not equate this to the 5D4's dual pixel raw. Dual pixel raw is truly worthless. Pixel shift is orders of magnitude more useful and practical.

Do you know if anyone has written anything to capitalize on this yet?  The potential is there but last I had checked there was no way to realize it.
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Re: A7RIII from Sony: Dpreview is impressed by Pixel shift
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2017, 08:43:23 PM »