December 13, 2017, 06:26:12 AM

Author Topic: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite  (Read 3555 times)

SecureGSM

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2017, 07:58:55 PM »
yes, that is the one. X1T is the model and the letter at the end stands for C - Canon, S-Sony, N-Nikon, etc, etc.

yes, you need X1T-C version for Canon and X1T-S for your Sony, but... you can trigger your off camera Godox radio receivers or flash with either system radio trigger. that is convenient.
btw, you can set syncronisation delay in the receiver unit instead of the trigger or to both:

in 100us - microseconds steps,  1-100 units. so that is maximum 0.01s delay according to manual for trigger and 0.01s for the receiver. therefore you can set up to 0.02s delay combined if both the trigger and the receiver is used.

http://www.godox.com/EN/InstructionManual/Godox_X1C_20170906.pdf

you enter menu and set C.Fn-00 (sync delay value) accordingly:

00 - no delay (default)
01-100 - Synchronization delay N*100 us
(synchronization delay icon is displayed.)

You need:
X1T-C trigger for your Canon Camera
X1T-S trigger for your Sony Camera
X1R-C receiver for your Canon Speedlites

please note:

Q: Why X1 can not trigger in near distance   (A.M.: up to 50cm close to flash or receiver)
A: Please  long press the TEST button and turn on the power simultaneously until STATUS blink for 2 seconds, 0-30m remote control can be selected.






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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2017, 07:58:55 PM »

rpt

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 09:51:16 PM »
Since there's quite some photography knowledge here, I like to give it a go in the hope someone has a clever answer to my problem  ;D

I have the StackShot Macro Rail and have recently bought a Sony a6300 next to my canon gear, just because it has silent mode so I can do lots of extreem macro without shutter wear.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to use flash as well and I own 4x 600EX-RT. Problem is: Sony doesn't support silent mode with flash trigger by the camera itself. I tested and if you do silent exposure while pressing the red test button on the flash itself you get proper exposure over the entire frame.

I have heardly any electronic knowledge, but what I would like to have is a setup where the stackshot controller itself triggers both camera and flash from the trigger port of that controller. The shutter lag requires a delay, which I have no idea how to manage that in a safe way since I don't want to kill my camera and/or flash. A radio trigger that supports a delay would be a welcome solution, but I have no idea if that exists.

Suggestions / ideas welcome :)
What exactly are you shouting? Can you not use an LED source instead of a flash? Sorry if it is a stupid question. :)

niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2017, 02:05:28 AM »
yes, that is the one. X1T is the model and the letter at the end stands for C - Canon, S-Sony, N-Nikon, etc, etc.

yes, you need X1T-C version for Canon and X1T-S for your Sony, but... you can trigger your off camera Godox radio receivers or flash with either system radio trigger. that is convenient.
btw, you can set syncronisation delay in the receiver unit instead of the trigger or to both:

in 100us - microseconds steps,  1-100 units. so that is maximum 0.01s delay according to manual for trigger and 0.01s for the receiver. therefore you can set up to 0.02s delay combined if both the trigger and the receiver is used.

http://www.godox.com/EN/InstructionManual/Godox_X1C_20170906.pdf

you enter menu and set C.Fn-00 (sync delay value) accordingly:

00 - no delay (default)
01-100 - Synchronization delay N*100 us
(synchronization delay icon is displayed.)

You need:
X1T-C trigger for your Canon Camera
X1T-S trigger for your Sony Camera
X1R-C receiver for your Canon Speedlites

please note:

Q: Why X1 can not trigger in near distance   (A.M.: up to 50cm close to flash or receiver)
A: Please  long press the TEST button and turn on the power simultaneously until STATUS blink for 2 seconds, 0-30m remote control can be selected.

If the flash transmitter is not on the camera itself (and it is not - it is attached to my StackShot controller), why would I get a Sony transmitter and not a Canon one? If I get the Canon combo, I can use it also with my Canon EOS system and a monolight to shoot studio portraits, right?

Concerning the delay: if it really is 100 microseconds, it is 0.1 miliseconds, which is 1/10.000th of a second or 0.0001 second, not 0.01 second. That's why I find these numbers so ridiculous.

Sorry, but I don't get the part about the near distance.

Niels

niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2017, 02:12:14 AM »
What exactly are you shouting? Can you not use an LED source instead of a flash? Sorry if it is a stupid question. :)

I'm shooting minerals and crystal specimens. I use fluorescent daylight bulbs most of the time because the light better matches daylight than most led's. Problem with LED's is that the spectrum lacks certain wavelengths, which are sometimes vital to the proper color of a mineral. For example, azurite (copper carbonate) is deep blue under daylight and looks turns black under most LED's. Sodium street lights are another well-known example where colors become impossible to see properly.

SecureGSM

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2017, 02:35:10 AM »

If the flash transmitter is not on the camera itself (and it is not - it is attached to my StackShot controller), why would I get a Sony transmitter and not a Canon one? If I get the Canon combo, I can use it also with my Canon EOS system and a monolight to shoot studio portraits, right?

correct. i was suggesting to get both: Canon and Sony, they are dirt cheap. but you are right.

Quote
Concerning the delay: if it really is 100 microseconds, it is 0.1 miliseconds, which is 1/10.000th of a second or 0.0001 second, not 0.01 second. That's why I find these numbers so ridiculous.

1us (microsecond) =1e-6 seconds
100us =1e-4 seconds

100x100us=1e-2 seconds = 0.01 seconds :)   <<<< 100 units maximum at 100us per each unit. 01-100 range in C.Fn menu. that's number of units, not microseconds in total.

0.01s sync delay set in receiver + 0.01s sync delay set in transmitter = 0.02 seconds total sync delay

Quote
Sorry, but I don't get the part about the near distance.

flash wont fire if trigger and receiver is closer than approx. 30cm to each other. in case your trigger will be located at short distance to receiver, you will have to enable "short distance firing" in Godox terms :). procedure is as per my note above. it shortens  the connection range to 30 meters instead of 100 meters. I do not see this being an issue for your situation though.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 02:54:57 AM by SecureGSM »

niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2017, 03:54:43 AM »

If the flash transmitter is not on the camera itself (and it is not - it is attached to my StackShot controller), why would I get a Sony transmitter and not a Canon one? If I get the Canon combo, I can use it also with my Canon EOS system and a monolight to shoot studio portraits, right?

correct. i was suggesting to get both: Canon and Sony, they are dirt cheap. but you are right.

Quote
Concerning the delay: if it really is 100 microseconds, it is 0.1 miliseconds, which is 1/10.000th of a second or 0.0001 second, not 0.01 second. That's why I find these numbers so ridiculous.

1us (microsecond) =1e-6 seconds
100us =1e-4 seconds

100x100us=1e-2 seconds = 0.01 seconds :)   <<<< 100 units maximum at 100us per each unit. 01-100 range in C.Fn menu. that's number of units, not microseconds in total.

0.01s sync delay set in receiver + 0.01s sync delay set in transmitter = 0.02 seconds total sync delay

Quote
Sorry, but I don't get the part about the near distance.

flash wont fire if trigger and receiver is closer than approx. 30cm to each other. in case your trigger will be located at short distance to receiver, you will have to enable "short distance firing" in Godox terms :). procedure is as per my note above. it shortens  the connection range to 30 meters instead of 100 meters. I do not see this being an issue for your situation though.

Ah! Each N equals already 100 microseconds? I thought that N equals only 1 microsecond. I couldn't think of a reason to set a delay of 1 microsecond and electronics that can reliably do this must be expensive.

Sounds great then, Although 20 ms could still be a little bit too short since it is exactly equal to the reported shutter lag (+ I'm also seeing if the solution can be implemented in the workflow of a friend of mine. He uses a 5D III with Magic Lantern and Full Resolution Silent Picture with DNG output. I think that shutter lag must be considerably longer in that case).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 04:46:08 AM by niels123 »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2017, 10:16:59 AM »
I should have bene a bit more specific.

We are talking about dedicated extreme macro setups where there are literally no moving parts: a microscope objective in front of a raynox tube lens which is directly in front of the sensor. Everything is done by moving the entire camera-lens-microscope objective combination which is mounted on a high-precision auomated rail with stepper motor to move the setup.

In terms of the delay: I really really do not care about miliseconds because I have the setup in a somewhat darker room where ambient light will have zero influence on the image, even with exposure times of > 1 second. So I will just use an exposure time long enough to match the flash with its delay and if that is a 1 second exposure (it should be doable to trigger the flash somewhere in that 1 second period with a set delay) I am very very happy  ;D


The point is that shutter delay is the time until the shutter opens.  If you cannot delay the flash until after the shutter opens, it does not matter how long your exposure is, because the flash triggered earlier.

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2017, 10:16:59 AM »

niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2017, 11:11:05 AM »
I should have bene a bit more specific.

We are talking about dedicated extreme macro setups where there are literally no moving parts: a microscope objective in front of a raynox tube lens which is directly in front of the sensor. Everything is done by moving the entire camera-lens-microscope objective combination which is mounted on a high-precision auomated rail with stepper motor to move the setup.

In terms of the delay: I really really do not care about miliseconds because I have the setup in a somewhat darker room where ambient light will have zero influence on the image, even with exposure times of > 1 second. So I will just use an exposure time long enough to match the flash with its delay and if that is a 1 second exposure (it should be doable to trigger the flash somewhere in that 1 second period with a set delay) I am very very happy  ;D


The point is that shutter delay is the time until the shutter opens.  If you cannot delay the flash until after the shutter opens, it does not matter how long your exposure is, because the flash triggered earlier.

Makes sense :) Fingers crossed, I ordered one Godox X1 Trigger and one Godox X1 receiver on Amazon. For a couple of dollars, I ordered the necessary adapters and cables. What I will try is:

RCA splitter on StackShot. Trigger cable to Sony cam on one end. Adapter from the other end to Godox Trigger. The receiver can be mounted on the flash hotshoe and I will set the max delay on both receiver and trigger, which gives 20 ms of delay in total. If it doesn't work, I have a 30-day return policy from Amazon and can simply return them for a full refund.

The other possible option I have been looking into is a Velleman VM206 universal timer which can be configured with some software via usb (using a pc). It can delay signals as much as you want (from 0.1s to, I think days of delay are possible).

rpt

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2017, 07:41:11 PM »
What exactly are you shouting? Can you not use an LED source instead of a flash? Sorry if it is a stupid question. :)

I'm shooting minerals and crystal specimens. I use fluorescent daylight bulbs most of the time because the light better matches daylight than most led's. Problem with LED's is that the spectrum lacks certain wavelengths, which are sometimes vital to the proper color of a mineral. For example, azurite (copper carbonate) is deep blue under daylight and looks turns black under most LED's. Sodium street lights are another well-known example where colors become impossible to see properly.
Ah! And sorry for writing the word shouting instead of shooting but you figured that out.

How about this process - it will be a bit iterative but should work.
  • focus on the subject
  • set focusing to manual
  • set shutter speed to B
  • darken the room - completely dark
  • hold down shutter
  • test fire flash
  • check exposure of the image
  • adjust flash power, aperture or ISO and repeat as needed from step 4

niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2017, 03:19:22 AM »
What exactly are you shouting? Can you not use an LED source instead of a flash? Sorry if it is a stupid question. :)

I'm shooting minerals and crystal specimens. I use fluorescent daylight bulbs most of the time because the light better matches daylight than most led's. Problem with LED's is that the spectrum lacks certain wavelengths, which are sometimes vital to the proper color of a mineral. For example, azurite (copper carbonate) is deep blue under daylight and looks turns black under most LED's. Sodium street lights are another well-known example where colors become impossible to see properly.
Ah! And sorry for writing the word shouting instead of shooting but you figured that out.

How about this process - it will be a bit iterative but should work.
  • focus on the subject
  • set focusing to manual
  • set shutter speed to B
  • darken the room - completely dark
  • hold down shutter
  • test fire flash
  • check exposure of the image
  • adjust flash power, aperture or ISO and repeat as needed from step 4

Poeple meka typo's :) Don't wurry  :P

With the exception of bulb mode that's how I normally checked my exposure and see what flash power I wanted (with Canon and mechanical shutter). As far as I understand, it doesn't solve the flash delay problem when the focusstacking controller form Cognisys is triggering the camera each step during the stack.

jolyonralph

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2017, 04:29:04 AM »
Hi Niels.

You may well have already seen them but do check out Stephan Wolfsried's articles on mineral photography - he goes into some detail discussing his Stackshot setups and issues.

https://www.mindat.org/user-1664.html#5

Personally I find flash to be too limiting for mineral photomacrography - you really do need to see in advance what is being lit down to the individual (micro)crystal faces.   

I would think an investment in better quality (ie expensive) continuous lighting would be wise.

Jolyon (and hello to a fellow mineral person!)
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niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2017, 05:02:33 AM »
Hi Niels.

You may well have already seen them but do check out Stephan Wolfsried's articles on mineral photography - he goes into some detail discussing his Stackshot setups and issues.

https://www.mindat.org/user-1664.html#5

Personally I find flash to be too limiting for mineral photomacrography - you really do need to see in advance what is being lit down to the individual (micro)crystal faces.   

I would think an investment in better quality (ie expensive) continuous lighting would be wise.

Jolyon (and hello to a fellow mineral person!)

Thanks Jolyon :) I have seen the article from Stephan (and I've been on Mindat for many years). Although I fully agree with that you need to see what's happening with flash, it does give advantage in reduced motion blur risk, especially at high mag's. I've seen Stephan is using those 3 of those Zeiss KPL flex arm lights. I have one and I don't really like it in my setup (as well as the output colors of the halogen bulbs, even when shooting raw and doing correct white balance).

My hope is that I can use continuous light most of the time, but in case I need or want to use flash it is nice to have the possibility in silent mode and if that takes an investment of $80, it's well worth it. I have a bunch of speedlites lying around anyway  :)

On a side note: I think it is mainly the diffusor(s) that determine the quality of the light. The flex arm halogen units are designed for microscopes and when used without diffusor give quite harsh lighting so that makes me wonder if there are better (possibly less expensive) options for continuous lighting. Three of those Zeiss units are well over 2000 usd, maybe even over 3000 usd.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 05:29:07 AM by niels123 »

jolyonralph

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2017, 05:46:22 AM »
It's true, there's nothing quite like macro stacking to increase your shutter activations in a hurry :)

I had the A6000 and now have the A7RII but I haven't really had much success with either of them for macro photography and have always gone back to the 5DSr.

Jolyon
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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2017, 05:46:22 AM »

niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2017, 08:37:50 AM »
It's true, there's nothing quite like macro stacking to increase your shutter activations in a hurry :)

I had the A6000 and now have the A7RII but I haven't really had much success with either of them for macro photography and have always gone back to the 5DSr.

Jolyon

If I may ask: what's the reason the A7RII is not as suitable for you as the 5Ds R for macro photograpy? Is it for mineral photography or macro photography in the field (e.g. insects)?

niels123

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2017, 01:41:55 PM »
Flash synchronisation delay can be achieved with Godox X1T-s trigger. C.Fn settings:

C.Fn 00 - set from 0 to 19.9ms in 100us steps. It works. You need a Godox compatible radio receiver, flash of monolight though. Godox receivers (i.e. X1R-S) are very inexpensive.

Today, the Godox X1 Trigger + Receiver arrived. I set the value of C.Fn 00 to 100 (Flash synchronization delay), corresponding to a delay of 10 miliseconds. I tried with my stackshot, but the flash is too early for my Sony a6300 in manual mode (1 second)   :(

Here they mention a max HSS delay of 19.9 ms. The manual only mentions a C.Fn 00 delay of max 10 ms and I can't find anything about HSS delay in the manual. Nevertheless, I don't want to shoot in HSS as it generates much more heat in my flashes.

So I guess it doesn't work?  Any ideas to try before I return them?

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Re: Delay a pulse to fire a speedlite
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2017, 01:41:55 PM »