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Author Topic: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]  (Read 42040 times)

Birdshooter

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2012, 04:03:43 AM »
Conclusion: 3 consumer bodies (entry, standard, advanced) and 3 pro bodies (Action, Landscape, Photojournalist) from canon, this would be a nice and logic lineup.

Please bear in mind that in your setup the price of the Pro body for Actions is 3 times as high as the one for Photojournalist. That is strange if it is all the same Pro line.

This is how I see it:

1-series: Top of the Hill, best in everything. Pro

3-Series: High MP FF, low fps, Pro
5-Series: Mid MP FF, very good in high ISO, Pro
7-Series: Mid MP APS-C, high fps, Pro

Then the Advanced bodies in the xxD series, the Consumer bodies in the xxxD series and the entry level xxxxD series.

There is a market out there for Pro APS-C bodies, and if Canon don't realize that , then they ask people to first buy a body which is priced 3 times as high, and then combine it with long lenses which are double the price.
If the strategy of Canon is that they only want a selected croud being able to invest so much money, then indeed it was the last 7D out there, but also the last 5D and many other series as they will be killing their company.

The mass is paying for the R&D for the top Pro lines. BUT you need to keep the mass happy, and there is a mass out there for a Pro APS-C body!


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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2012, 04:03:43 AM »

nicku

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2012, 04:04:45 AM »

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.














EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

D.Sim

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2012, 04:25:43 AM »

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 04:29:15 AM by D.Sim »

nicku

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2012, 05:31:03 AM »

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

:) i meant in technology point of view....

...and is not very hard ( in terms of technology) to adapt the APS-H mirror to be compatible with EF-s lenses.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 05:46:46 AM by nicku »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #154 on: February 15, 2012, 05:47:22 AM »
No 7D?  I have to say - to hell with this rumor.  Leave the crop sensor users something capable (and affordable).  I'm definitely not going to be cheerleading for any 5D / 7D line compression, unless they manage to keep pixel density the same (i.e. the same "reach" for my lenses) in distance limited applications like birding, while keeping or even boosting per-pixel ISO performance, and also keeping the price reasonable and keeping the other pro-like features of the 7D.  Tall order, really.  I suppose all it would take is a bigger sensor, but I wonder if they really could slap in the pentaprism and AF sensor for the 1D or 5D X units.  Doubt it, and I don't want to get something worse in that respect than the 7D has.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #155 on: February 15, 2012, 05:48:59 AM »

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

:) i meant in technology point of view....

...and is not very hard ( in terms of technology) to adapt the APS-H mirror to be compatible with EF-s lenses.
You aren't guaranteed the EF-S lenses will cover a full image circle.  That pretty much kills the discussion, I think.

Personally, 1.3X might not be a totally terrible compromise, though it would alter the field of view I get out of my lenses.  So long as any change meets the criteria I laid out above I'm down with it...but only if it meets ALL of them.

darkmatter2k12

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2012, 06:16:23 AM »
Can't belive this rumor. If Canon decide to do something like this it will be like shooting in his legs.

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2012, 06:16:23 AM »

nicku

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #157 on: February 15, 2012, 06:32:19 AM »

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

:) i meant in technology point of view....

...and is not very hard ( in terms of technology) to adapt the APS-H mirror to be compatible with EF-s lenses.
You aren't guaranteed the EF-S lenses will cover a full image circle.  That pretty much kills the discussion, I think.

Personally, 1.3X might not be a totally terrible compromise, though it would alter the field of view I get out of my lenses.  So long as any change meets the criteria I laid out above I'm down with it...but only if it meets ALL of them.

No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

AvTvM

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #158 on: February 15, 2012, 07:10:04 AM »
No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

wrong!

1. EF-S lenses do NOT cover the image circle of APS-H (Crop 1.3x) - and even if you get a format-filling image at some focal lengths, vignetting will be really bad and IQ will be terrible towards the edges/corners.

2. Especially the rear element of the EF-S 10-22 may very well be hit by the larger mirror in an APS-H camera - as long as we assume it will be a DSLR and not a mirrorless APS-H camera body.

3. Unfortunately Canonhas was dead wrong to introduce the EF-S mount for its APS-C lenses (Crop 1.6x). Nikon has done it 100% right and implemented the only sensible solution: only ONE lens mount for any and all lenses - FX and DX. And NO rear elements sticking into the body so they may be hit by a larger FF camera mirror. And especially the D4 and D800 offer perfect cropping solutions by automacially masking off parts of the viewfinder if a crop lens (DX) is mounted. Although I like my Crop camera (7D) and my 3 good EF-S lenses (10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro) I can cleraly tell how inferior Canon's EF-S concept is. 

4. Actually, Canon is not even taking advantage of the theoretical EF-S advantage. Only ONE EF-S lens (10-22) has a rear element sticking into the mirror box to be closer to the sensor. ALL other existing EF-S lenses could have implemented with an EF mount without any changes to their optical design. And even the EF-S 10-22 could have ben quite easily designed to also work with an EF mount ... Nikon had no problem designing their AF-S 10-24 DX to fit into their regular F-mount.

5. I have no doubt whatsoever, that there will be a 7D successor with APS-C sensor (crop 1.6x). It will be better than the current 7D. It will most likely only be announced some time after Nikon launches their new DX pro-body (D400 or whatever they may call it). 

maxxevv

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #159 on: February 15, 2012, 07:14:21 AM »

No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

Precisely !!!

wickidwombat

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #160 on: February 15, 2012, 07:14:53 AM »
No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

wrong!

1. EF-S lenses do NOT cover the image circle of APS-H (Crop 1.3x) - and even if you get a format-filling image at some focal lengths, vignetting will be really bad and IQ will be terrible towards the edges/corners.

2. Especially the rear element of the EF-S 10-22 may very well be hit by the larger mirror in an APS-H camera - as long as we assume it will be a DSLR and not a mirrorless APS-H camera body.

3. Unfortunately Canonhas was dead wrong to introduce the EF-S mount for its APS-C lenses (Crop 1.6x). Nikon has done it 100% right and implemented the only sensible solution: only ONE lens mount for any and all lenses - FX and DX. And NO rear elements sticking into the body so they may be hit by a larger FF camera mirror. And especially the D4 and D800 offer perfect cropping solutions by automacially masking off parts of the viewfinder if a crop lens (DX) is mounted. Although I like my Crop camera (7D) and my 3 good EF-S lenses (10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro) I can cleraly tell how inferior Canon's EF-S concept is. 

4. Actually, Canon is not even taking advantage of the theoretical EF-S advantage. Only ONE EF-S lens (10-22) has a rear element sticking into the mirror box to be closer to the sensor. ALL other existing EF-S lenses could have implemented with an EF mount without any changes to their optical design. And even the EF-S 10-22 could have ben quite easily designed to also work with an EF mount ... Nikon had no problem designing their AF-S 10-24 DX to fit into their regular F-mount.

5. I have no doubt whatsoever, that there will be a 7D successor with APS-C sensor (crop 1.6x). It will be better than the current 7D. It will most likely only be announced some time after Nikon launches their new DX pro-body (D400 or whatever they may call it).

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved
APS-H Fanboy

briansquibb

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #161 on: February 15, 2012, 07:21:01 AM »

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved

APS-H mirrorless
22mp
10fps
takes EF and EF-S lens
light weight and compact

- that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons :D

wickidwombat

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2012, 07:26:34 AM »

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved

APS-H mirrorless
22mp
10fps
takes EF and EF-S lens
light weight and compact

- that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons :D

you've been reading my mind again
APS-H Fanboy

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2012, 07:26:34 AM »

AvTvM

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2012, 07:35:56 AM »

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved

APS-H mirrorless
22mp
10fps
takes EF and EF-S lens
light weight and compact

- that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons :D

I agree on that one! But I am willing to bet that Canon's mirrorless line will have the same shitty small sensor format of the G1X ...  http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canong1x/images/Sensorsizes.png ... and it will be consumer-oriented, castrated bodies ... along the lines of NEX-3,  NEX 5 and most of the mFT Pannies and Olys.

marekjoz

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2012, 07:42:45 AM »

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved

APS-H mirrorless
22mp
10fps
takes EF and EF-S lens
light weight and compact

- that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons :D

I agree on that one! But I am willing to bet that Canon's mirrorless line will have the same S___ty small sensor format of the G1X ...  http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canong1x/images/Sensorsizes.png ... and it will be consumer-oriented, castrated bodies ... along the lines of NEX-3,  NEX 5 and most of the mFT Pannies and Olys.

The whole sh...y line except one model being able to compete with Leica

+No AA filter
+Higher fps (no mirror)
EF, EF-S enabled
:)
flickr | youtube | 5D2, 50 F/1.4, 24-105 F/4 L IS, 300 F/4 L IS, x1.4 II

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Re: No 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2012, 07:42:45 AM »