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Author Topic: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]  (Read 50633 times)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2012, 12:36:56 PM »
Am I to expect the same 61pt AF system that's in the 1D X?

Considering what Nikon offers, you should be expecting that only even more considering how resting on their laurels and holding as much back as possible and milking out every last penny rather than charging forward and blowing Nikon out of the water (which they easily could have done a few times over the last few years) and arrogant about their position they have become, quite possibly not. But you can hope. Maybe, maybe, maybe, Nikon/Sony have put enough fear into them to wake them up again.

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2012, 12:36:56 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2012, 12:39:29 PM »
What I'm mostly worried about is the DR. Not only it has been less on the Canon side than the competition by raw figures for quite some years already, it is also less usable, shadow area does not tolerate much pushing.

Btw DR is not a goal by itself, but the tool to overcome harsh lighting conditions, targeting pleasant non-hdr like output. Add wrong exposure to the list, being it a different user wish after the shoot or biased mesurement due to tricky light conditions etc.

Yeah me too. It's a little worrisome that they aren't bragging about it. If they had gone to a new process where they could improve the 5D2 DR by 2 measured stops and 3 usable stops at ISO 100 then you'd think we'd already be hearing all sorts of claims about the 1DX. They did mention DR a bit when it came to the 1DX but they were unclear calling it DR in one spot and SNR in another and improved largely in JPG in another so it's hard to say, there is reason for hope for sure but also reason to doubt, i.e. nobody yet knows and we will see soon enough.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2012, 12:41:38 PM »
Regarding the argument of 22MP not being enough to replace the 7D - because a 1.6x crop would not give enough pixels - Canon will probably argue that users should use a 1.4x TC to get the extra reach.  - I am not saying this will get the results people are looking for - just that that is what I would expect Canon to argue.

Sorry don't agree with you:
7D + 400 MM F4 + 1.4x = 896 @ F5.6 (autofocused) (560 * 1.6)
5D (or 1D) + 400 mm F4 + 1.4x =  560 @ F5.6 (autofocused)


To add antother 1.4 behind it would be a 2x (1.4 * 1.4) resulting in:
5D (or 1D) + 400 mm F4 + 2x =  800 (still shorter) @ F8 (Manual focused)

You can't do the math like that. What matter is pixels per duck and so you need to use the camera's photosite densities not whether they are FF or APS-H or APS-C. A 5D, a 5D2 and 1Ds2 and a 1DX all would need a different results, not the same result.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2012, 12:47:33 PM »
You have to wonder, if Canon had released a 5Dmk3 in September (before the 1Dx was announced) and it basically had:

1) generally the same 21M sensor as today
2) the 7D functional feature set (AF system, metering, horizon guide, auto ISO, etc.)
3) a Digic-V processor or dual Digic-IV's like the 7D
4) a slight improvement in the high ISO noise, say 1/2 stop better due to improved sensor manufacturing
5) a 5-6fps shoot rate
6) used the same batteries and grip as the 5Dmk2
7) added a 60 fps video frame rate
8 ) additional firmware options

This for $2499......

How many people would be completely happy with that camera?

You're basically looking at off the shelf technology and mainly adaptation costs involved in the construction and integration, along with improved firmware.  Yet what you'd have would kick the crap out of 80% of the market.

I know that for a lot of mid-range, general studio, and wedding shooters, that's a solid camera and offers just about all that is needed in that market segment.  When you realize the image quality of a 3 year old 5Dmk2 still beats a vast majority of the competition, these tweaks remove the negatives of the current body and flesh out it's feature set nicely.

Looking at prosumer and up, it would still leave room for a 7Dmk2, an enhanced version of the 7D, same 18M pixels, but improved APS-C sensor, 10 fps. It leaves room for a 5Dx with higher megapixels, and the 1Dx for the pro market.
i would rather have the current rumoured camera at 3k

Understood.  But you do realize the rumored camera will NOT have a better noise performance at high ISO (low light) than the 1Dx....it will be worse.

You might ask why....it's simple.  The 1Dx has the latest 18M FF sensor and represents the best Canon can currently do with the sensor technology ready for mass production.  A 22M FF sensor will have more pixels and won't be able to produce images with less noise at the same ISO settings. 

So, you're going to trade off more noise for those extra pixels for $3k.  Frankly, I'd take what's in the package I outlined for $500 less and be able to use my existing grip and batteries making it about $800 less than the rumored option, and shoot cleaner images at ISO 3200 and 6400.

If the 22MP lets them get better video quality and you don't lose 4MP (not that it matters so much, although at some point it becomes a slippery slope and since we had hoped to gain some even....) then why not? Seriosult what different does 18MP vs 22MP make for SNR and DR? Zero for DR and like what maybe 1/10th stop? 1/6th stop at worst for SNR? Who cares about that? Nobody can see the difference between a fraction of a stop difference for noise.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #154 on: February 15, 2012, 12:54:18 PM »
but fake Chuck Westfall is trashing the D800 IQ.. a LOT.. especially comparing it to the 1Dx

There are no proper samples available to anyone not testing the cams to really compare them properly with, for starters (although he seems to be hinting that he is an official tester so maybe he actually has but he can't obviously use real samples to show). But he does appear to be mixing up some terms posterization and pattern banding, for one.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:05:29 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

awinphoto

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #155 on: February 15, 2012, 01:09:34 PM »
but fake Chuck Westfall is trashing the D800 IQ.. a LOT.. especially comparing it to the 1Dx

There are no proper samples available to anyone not testing the cams to really compare them properly with, for starters (although he seems to be hinting that he is an official tester so maybe he actually has but he can't obviously use real samples to show). But he does appear to be mixing up some terms posterization and pattern banding, for one.

Everyone has some sort of agenda, even you and me... Perhaps his agenda is trashing high MP, which was canon's mantra, now nikons... I dont know what his deal is but i'm sure once it's released you'll find as many who love the camera and those who will hate the camera... it's the cycle of life in the camera world. 
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Axilrod

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2012, 02:49:20 PM »
You can be certain that they will not offer a clean HDMI output.

How/why are you so sure that they won't offer a clean HDMI out?  Nikon did it with the D800, why does it seem so out of the question for Canon to follow suit?

I can understand if you're suggesting it based on the idea that the 5D series is a still camera at heart, and a clean HDMI out may be a feature that only a small percentage of buyers would use.  But to suggest Canon is deliberately releasing a crummy camera just sounds kind of crazy.  The next 5D is one of the most anticipated cameras of all time and people have been waiting on it for years.  Canon would have to be run by a bunch of morons to only make minor updates.

This is a rumors forum, you can't be certain of anything...
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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2012, 02:49:20 PM »

Axilrod

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #157 on: February 15, 2012, 03:01:43 PM »
Canon do not care about me, as a customer. I need to wait to long for the new product which for me is 5dmarkIII. To be honest I do not think that they will do enything worth staying with them. Despite the fact i am heavy invested in Canon's gear, now i am considering switching back to nikon with it d800 and great AF and many many other benefits. I originally came from Nikon D300, to Canon's team, but i am really dissapointed with the gear. In my opinion Canon does not move forward, they make everything to let us think they make a huge steps, but thats only marketing., thats only few paid photographers who push good opinions in the web. I will lost a lot selling my Canon gear, but i really think thay its not worth staying with them. It's strange i know but-Canon is a step behing Nikon, they just dont have good ideas, they dont think in revolutionary way, they only slightly rebuild old products, the dont satisfy thier costumers, imho they just look at Nikon product and want to have something similar, but worse...why not...well...people  will not sell their gear and switch to Nikon.

You're right, I don't think Canon cares about your individual wants/needs, you're just one person in a giant market.  It's arrogant to even think that a multi-billion dollar company should do everything based around what YOU want.  Just because you aren't happy with a product doesn't mean that other people feel the same.  "They don't satisfy their customers?"  Then WHY does ANYONE own a 5DII, 7D, or anything else?  Why are you on this rumor site trying to figure out what they are releasing next?  That's crazy logic, "This company sucks, I'm not satisfied, what are they releasing next?!"  Go ahead and head over to Nikon rumors, because bitching about Canon on this forum isn't going to bring about whatever it is you're looking for. 

You're pretty much saying you are going to switch to a Nikon camera (that was just announced, that you have never used) based on the idea that Canon's next camera won't be any good (even though it hasn't been announced).  And it's kinda hard to say that Canon is a "step behind Nikon," this is all based on the D800 specs, Canon hasn't even had a chance to counter. 

Everyone just needs to chill out, we have 2 weeks until announcement, if the camera sucks then you can complain all you want.  But until then everyone is just guessing and comparing numbers, none of these arguments are based on performance. 
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sublime LightWorks

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #158 on: February 15, 2012, 03:05:12 PM »
I hear your points and I did include the D800 in my thoughts, but I will also point out that the D800 is going to sacrifice performance at ISO 1600, 3200, and 6400.  The D800 images available so far (all well lit I might add) show it's no match for the 5Dmk2 at those ISO levels.  Actually it looks a lot like the 7D in that regard.


It is already confirmed by people with RAW files from D800 that is it about 0.5 stop better than 5Dmk2. The D800 beats D700 in image quality at all ISO. Since D800 sensor has similar pixels as D7000 sensor this was of course expected. When something is so expected (that the D800 should be better than 5D2 and D700 at high ISO) then we should not really believe in reports that tells otherwise untill it's confirmed by undoubtable tests.

Can you provide a link to any RAW comparisons as noted in your reply?  I have not seen any and would love to see this analysis.  The D800's I've seen today don't come close to a 5Dmk2 at ISO 1600 and higher. 

What ISO values did these people compare the D800 to the 5Dmk2 to make that statement?  I have serious doubts that a 36mpix sensor is out performing the 5Dmk2 and would like to see this for myself.

I'm reading forums all over the net.
Why do you belive the D800 would have worse pixels than D7000 when they are similar? If they have similar performance then clearly the D800 will beat 5Dmk2.
Why are putting anything into 36MP when it has been confirmed in this forum and all over the net that pixel size itself has nothing to do with high ISO performance?

You can start reading this and then search further yourself.  If you don't read swedish it's confirming that D800 at pixel level noise is more or less the same as D7000 as other sources also do. (and therefor with no doubt is better than 5Dmk2 and D700).
http://www.fotosidan.se/forum/showthread.php?t=138355&page=84
Similar information is also to be found at DPreview.

Where, pray tell, has it been "confirmed" all over the place that pixel size has nothing to do with ISO noise performance? 

And, I'm still waiting for a link to a RAW comparison that shows the images.


EYEONE

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #159 on: February 15, 2012, 03:10:19 PM »

Everyone just needs to chill out, we have 2 weeks until announcement, if the camera sucks then you can complain all you want.

And complain they will. Some will switch to Nikon, but will it make them better photographers? Nope.
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sublime LightWorks

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #160 on: February 15, 2012, 03:24:21 PM »
Am I to expect the same 61pt AF system that's in the 1D X?

Considering what Nikon offers, you should be expecting that only even more considering how resting on their laurels and holding as much back as possible and milking out every last penny rather than charging forward and blowing Nikon out of the water (which they easily could have done a few times over the last few years) and arrogant about their position they have become, quite possibly not. But you can hope. Maybe, maybe, maybe, Nikon/Sony have put enough fear into them to wake them up again.

I seriously doubt the 5D? camera will have the same AF and metering as the full 1Dx system.

Again, from the Canon doc on the 1DX, the AF and metering system have a dedicated Digic 4 processor.  For the 5Dx to have this AF system, it would necessitate having similar processing power.  At minimum, that means the 5Dx would have to be dual processor (Digic 5 for the images, video, and all other functions), and Digic 4 for the AF and metering. 

An 18Mpix FF image on a 1Dx at 12 fps is going to push (excluding all other items), 216Mpix thru those two Digic 5 processors.  A 5Dx, based on the rumored specs, at 22Mpix and 7fps, will push 154 Mpix thru the processor(s).  I do not believe a single Digic 5 can push that pixel load, and handle all other camera functions alone. 

If it could, then the 1Dx should be able to push approx 300Mpix thru (based on the 5Dx needs handled by a single Digic 5) and still handle all other functions (except the aforementioned AF and metering using the Digic 4).  Now, if that is correct, then the 1Dx should not have to resort to JPEG only in the 14 fps burst mode, it should be able to handle RAWs (the mirror lockup in that burst mode has zero to do with the JPEG only ability of that mode, its the data being pushed that limits it).  By estimation and basic scaling of the processors, the 1Dx should have nearly 80Mpix additional bandwidth available for processing.

So, based on this model, the 5Dx would have to have 3 processors to handle the estimated pixel load, the camera functions, and the 1Dx AF and metering.  I don't think that is going to happen.  As a result, I believe the AF and metering will be a subset of the 1Dx that does not require it's own dedicated processor.

Don't get me wrong my friend, I would LOVE for you to be right and it did have the full-on 1Dx AF and metering.  I just think that's beyond what this body will have.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 03:26:21 PM by sublime LightWorks »

sublime LightWorks

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #161 on: February 15, 2012, 03:43:45 PM »
If the 22MP lets them get better video quality and you don't lose 4MP (not that it matters so much, although at some point it becomes a slippery slope and since we had hoped to gain some even....) then why not? Seriosult what different does 18MP vs 22MP make for SNR and DR? Zero for DR and like what maybe 1/10th stop? 1/6th stop at worst for SNR? Who cares about that? Nobody can see the difference between a fraction of a stop difference for noise.

I hear you, but......

Based on what you're saying, why not put the 22Mpix sensor on the 1Dx?  It certainly had to be ready last fall (in reality for this March release).  If the noise is that little and there is no DR difference as you state....

Let's go further.....if we are to assume the 5Dx has a single Digic 5 to support 22Mpix at 7 fps and a single Digic 4 dedicated to the AF per the 1Dx specs (as you have stated you believe the 1Dx AF will be in this camera), then the two Digic 5 processors in the 1Dx should be able to handle 22Mpix full RAW at 14fps. 

There should be zero reasons for Canon NOT to put that sensor in the 1Dx.  It would truly be the flagship camera body with the best image quality, top functional options, weather-seal, etc., all as stated in the brochures and news releases.

But they didn't do that.  They put an 18Mpix FF sensor in the 1Dx, not this rumored 22Mpix FF sensor.  If these are so close in image quality that nobody can see a difference as you state, why then is it not in the 1Dx?

Remember, Canon's own words:

Quote
replacing both the EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS-1D Mark IV models in Canon’s lineup.

I cannot see the 5Dx taking that IQ spot again and Canon having it jump the IQ lineup.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 03:49:21 PM by sublime LightWorks »

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2012, 03:48:47 PM »
But they didn't do that.  They put an 18Mpix FF sensor in the 1Dx, not this rumored 22Mpix FF sensor.  If these are so close in image quality that nobody can see a difference as you state, why then is it not in the 1Dx?

Because the 18Mpix (larger pix) is better for stills. The only reason to have the 22Mpix in the FF is so you can do better line skipping video at 1080p.

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #162 on: February 15, 2012, 03:48:47 PM »

sublime LightWorks

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2012, 03:51:33 PM »
But they didn't do that.  They put an 18Mpix FF sensor in the 1Dx, not this rumored 22Mpix FF sensor.  If these are so close in image quality that nobody can see a difference as you state, why then is it not in the 1Dx?

Because the 18Mpix (larger pix) is better for stills. The only reason to have the 22Mpix in the FF is so you can do better line skipping video at 1080p.

Correct....thank you.  Which says exactly my point....the still images taken with the 1Dx will be a better IQ than the 5Dx.  That 22Mpix sensor is NOT going to equal or surpass the 1Dx 18Mpix sensor in IQ.  If it did, Canon would have put it in the 1Dx and been able to claim higher Mpixels and IQ.

They aren't stupid, they'd win both mindsets with that.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 03:53:42 PM by sublime LightWorks »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2012, 05:44:21 PM »
You can be certain that they will not offer a clean HDMI output.

How/why are you so sure that they won't offer a clean HDMI out?  Nikon did it with the D800, why does it seem so out of the question for Canon to follow suit?

I can understand if you're suggesting it based on the idea that the 5D series is a still camera at heart, and a clean HDMI out may be a feature that only a small percentage of buyers would use.  But to suggest Canon is deliberately releasing a crummy camera just sounds kind of crazy.  The next 5D is one of the most anticipated cameras of all time and people have been waiting on it for years.  Canon would have to be run by a bunch of morons to only make minor updates.

This is a rumors forum, you can't be certain of anything...

A Canon rep was quote a while back when demoing a 1DX that the 1DX didn't not have uncompressed HDMI out because Canon's video division didn't want that to happen. They didn't want the stills division to allow that.  Simple as that. So they did very deliberately cripple that. Perhaps the D800 will make the higher up change his mind but you'd think they would've already known and had it in the 1DX then.

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2012, 05:44:21 PM »