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Author Topic: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]  (Read 44264 times)

gmrza

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2012, 06:12:10 PM »
Announcement date of February 28, 2012?

All the same specs are coming in. 22mp, 61pt af, 6.9fps. It could definitely take the spot of the 7D, if the previous rumor is true.

If Canon is pitching the next generation 5D camera as a replacement for the 5DII and 7D, this could be an announcement that Canon views as being significant enough to mark the 25th anniversary of the EOS system - which would make an end February or early March announcement plausible.  I still think that Canon will want to make some sort of a splash to mark the 25th anniversary of the EOS system.

I know a lot of people are complaining about the rumours only being about a 21MP sensor, however for a lot of uses that is probably enough.  For very many photographers, a 36 or 46 MP sensor won't give them better prints than a 22MP sensor.  - Yes, there are niche uses where more pixels are better, but Canon probably is focusing on the masses first.
Regarding the argument of 22MP not being enough to replace the 7D - because a 1.6x crop would not give enough pixels - Canon will probably argue that users should use a 1.4x TC to get the extra reach.  - I am not saying this will get the results people are looking for - just that that is what I would expect Canon to argue.
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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2012, 06:12:10 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2012, 07:20:20 PM »
You have to wonder, if Canon had released a 5Dmk3 in September (before the 1Dx was announced) and it basically had:

1) generally the same 21M sensor as today
2) the 7D functional feature set (AF system, metering, horizon guide, auto ISO, etc.)
3) a Digic-V processor or dual Digic-IV's like the 7D
4) a slight improvement in the high ISO noise, say 1/2 stop better due to improved sensor manufacturing
5) a 5-6fps shoot rate
6) used the same batteries and grip as the 5Dmk2
7) added a 60 fps video frame rate
8 ) additional firmware options

This for $2499......

How many people would be completely happy with that camera?

You're basically looking at off the shelf technology and mainly adaptation costs involved in the construction and integration, along with improved firmware.  Yet what you'd have would kick the crap out of 80% of the market.

I know that for a lot of mid-range, general studio, and wedding shooters, that's a solid camera and offers just about all that is needed in that market segment.  When you realize the image quality of a 3 year old 5Dmk2 still beats a vast majority of the competition, these tweaks remove the negatives of the current body and flesh out it's feature set nicely.


That sounds more like what the 5D2 might have been, that's too little to last until 2015.

The D800 would already, just six months later have had 50% more MP, possibly 2 stops better low ISO DR, same fps with grip, vastly better video (if it used the dual digic iv in your list instead of the digic 5), better AF.

Way too conservative.

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2012, 07:53:36 PM »
Canon is a very conservative company. They will not be doing anything revolutionary in the 5DIII/X. For video they there's not much more they can do other than tweaking the CODEC to improve the quality. You can be certain that they will not offer a clean HDMI output.

Regarding the sensor it seems that Canon has not been making as much progress on per pixel quality as the Sony/Nikon sensors over the past few years. The pixel quality of the Nikon D7000, Sony NEX-7, and D800 are pretty darn good. The early reports are showing that the D800 is producing noise similar to a D700 which is insane considering the D800's 4.88um pixel pitch compared to the D700's 8.45um. Canon has gone on record to claim that the 1DX has a 2 stop improvement in noise, for JPEG only, and will not go on record to say anything about RAW. This 2 stop improvement is also comparing the 1DX's 6.95um pixel pitch to the 5.7um pitch of the 1DIV. One can reasonably assume that Canon has not drastically improved the QE of their pixels and/or read out noise.

The 22MP specs of the rumored new 5D seems consistent with Canon's conservative strategy. I would expect no more than a 0.5 stop improvement in noise and better AF. Although this seems like something that most people are happy with here's the problem. Canon is going to rape us on the price. Looking at their latest pricing strategy for their lenses I wouldn't be surprised if these modest 5D improvements will come at a very steep price increase.

It seems that Canon's executive management has changed strategy to focus more on improving profit margins rather than gaining market share. The best way to do this is to drastically increase prices. They probably figure that it's time to harvest the benefits of the fantastic market share gain they have earned over the past 5 years. Now that people are locked into the Canon system it's time to jack up the price.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 07:59:22 PM by Smith »

jaduffy007

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2012, 08:26:47 PM »
Am I to expect the same 61pt AF system that's in the 1D X?

wickidwombat

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2012, 08:53:27 PM »
Am I to expect the same 61pt AF system that's in the 1D X?
the rumour says same but simplified which might be a good thing
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RedEye

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2012, 10:54:15 PM »
Everybody sure is poo pooing the potential specs for a new camera - but guys, it's been almost 4 YEARS since the last major release, and potentially longer if one were to measure the unknown internal development cycles of their labs.  Let's keep our hopes up, chins up, wallets stacked, and hard disk space free..... The next one could be the last one you ever need :).

kapanak

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #126 on: February 15, 2012, 03:22:38 AM »
Everybody sure is poo pooing the potential specs for a new camera - but guys, it's been almost 4 YEARS since the last major release, and potentially longer if one were to measure the unknown internal development cycles of their labs.  Let's keep our hopes up, chins up, wallets stacked, and hard disk space free..... The next one could be the last one you ever need :).

Last one before the next one comes out.  8)  :-*

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #126 on: February 15, 2012, 03:22:38 AM »

Ivar

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #127 on: February 15, 2012, 04:05:51 AM »
What I'm mostly worried about is the DR. Not only it has been less on the Canon side than the competition by raw figures for quite some years already, it is also less usable, shadow area does not tolerate much pushing.

Btw DR is not a goal by itself, but the tool to overcome harsh lighting conditions, targeting pleasant non-hdr like output. Add wrong exposure to the list, being it a different user wish after the shoot or biased mesurement due to tricky light conditions etc.



Birdshooter

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #128 on: February 15, 2012, 05:26:31 AM »
Regarding the argument of 22MP not being enough to replace the 7D - because a 1.6x crop would not give enough pixels - Canon will probably argue that users should use a 1.4x TC to get the extra reach.  - I am not saying this will get the results people are looking for - just that that is what I would expect Canon to argue.

Sorry don't agree with you:
7D + 400 MM F4 + 1.4x = 896 @ F5.6 (autofocused) (560 * 1.6)
5D (or 1D) + 400 mm F4 + 1.4x =  560 @ F5.6 (autofocused)


To add antother 1.4 behind it would be a 2x (1.4 * 1.4) resulting in:
5D (or 1D) + 400 mm F4 + 2x =  800 (still shorter) @ F8 (Manual focused)

« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 05:28:05 AM by Birdshooter »

te4o

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #129 on: February 15, 2012, 05:32:18 AM »
Everybody sure is poo pooing the potential specs for a new camera - but guys, it's been almost 4 YEARS since the last major release, and potentially longer if one were to measure the unknown internal development cycles of their labs.  Let's keep our hopes up, chins up, wallets stacked, and hard disk space free..... The next one could be the last one you ever need :).

+1 Yes, I am with you RedEye, My thought exactly - how can a self-respecting Japanese company come 4+ years later on the market with just minor improvements and firmware updates ? They'd have to go harakiri right after the launch!!
I'd bet the 25 yrs anniversary EOS has a lot of bang to offer, in fact so much that all of you will want to order 15 minutes later... Let's hope they make them fast and good enough.
22 MP at least if not 24-26 - just to tease the Nikon D3 & 4 a bit, >6 fps, lots of software improvements, recognition of all possible faces, light kelvins etc etc, adjustments for backlight and so on - we've seen some of these on the P&S dwarfs. Video to go, I have no idea there, but not for engaged profis - C300...
And there was a guy who appeared on this forum a year ago and mentioned he had seen some testing in South Africa where they printed a picture of some grass and a horse wanted to eat it... ???
So, I hope our Waiting has been not in vain!
No Nikons for me - too old to change - and I believe that this year is Canon's year, they will get the edge.
Pedro, was this good enough for the optimists?

Right Ivar, I agree with you too, 5D2 tolerates not much push, the next one will. I hate the red/green muddy shadows after serious PP. Taking PP back is always painful, isn't it?
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Edwin Herdman

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #130 on: February 15, 2012, 05:38:54 AM »
Regarding the argument of 22MP not being enough to replace the 7D - because a 1.6x crop would not give enough pixels - Canon will probably argue that users should use a 1.4x TC to get the extra reach.  - I am not saying this will get the results people are looking for - just that that is what I would expect Canon to argue.
Canon (at least their workshop guys) HAVE argued this, but as Birdfollower says, it doesn't make sense.  Luckily the latest rumors seem to indicate Canon is having a hard rethink about this one.
All the same specs are coming in. 22mp, 61pt af, 6.9fps. It could definitely take the spot of the 7D, if the previous rumor is true.
For some users, but you know the price will be higher and so there is really no correspondence here.  The 7D still has a place.  I just hope (looking at an earlier rumor) that Canon understands the need for a professional crop body.  I feel vaguely betrayed that CR Guy isn't on board with this one, pushing for things that crop sensor users would like at a reasonable price.  A full frame camera won't do it, on price concerns alone.
God help Canon if they announce a crop 7D MkII in Feb. No amount of focus points or FPS will save them from the wrath of the 5Dx hordes... (myself included) :)
What do you care about our crop bodies?  And what if Canon releases a 5D X camera at the same time?  That shouldn't mean anything to you, if you're set on a full frame body.


With the release of the D800, Nikon still haven't produced anything to match the 5D2.

Huh?  :o
Strictly speaking, isn't this true?  If the D800 launches at a medium to high four figures, the 5D II still is fine in its segment.

Also, somebody earlier said that the "initial reports" said the D800's detail was stunning.  I'm seeing it varying from picture to picture - maybe the guy who did the French library interiors for Nikon was having trouble, though; the other samples look great.

psolberg

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #131 on: February 15, 2012, 07:29:46 AM »
Canon is a very conservative company. They will not be doing anything revolutionary in the 5DIII/X. For video they there's not much more they can do other than tweaking the CODEC to improve the quality. You can be certain that they will not offer a clean HDMI output.

Regarding the sensor it seems that Canon has not been making as much progress on per pixel quality as the Sony/Nikon sensors over the past few years. The pixel quality of the Nikon D7000, Sony NEX-7, and D800 are pretty darn good. The early reports are showing that the D800 is producing noise similar to a D700 which is insane considering the D800's 4.88um pixel pitch compared to the D700's 8.45um. Canon has gone on record to claim that the 1DX has a 2 stop improvement in noise, for JPEG only, and will not go on record to say anything about RAW. This 2 stop improvement is also comparing the 1DX's 6.95um pixel pitch to the 5.7um pitch of the 1DIV. One can reasonably assume that Canon has not drastically improved the QE of their pixels and/or read out noise.

The 22MP specs of the rumored new 5D seems consistent with Canon's conservative strategy. I would expect no more than a 0.5 stop improvement in noise and better AF. Although this seems like something that most people are happy with here's the problem. Canon is going to rape us on the price. Looking at their latest pricing strategy for their lenses I wouldn't be surprised if these modest 5D improvements will come at a very steep price increase.

It seems that Canon's executive management has changed strategy to focus more on improving profit margins rather than gaining market share. The best way to do this is to drastically increase prices. They probably figure that it's time to harvest the benefits of the fantastic market share gain they have earned over the past 5 years. Now that people are locked into the Canon system it's time to jack up the price.

excellent argument. couldn't have said it better myself. they just replaced their top man in the hopes of jumpstarting what has been a dissapointing streak of financial results. Although I think in terms of marketshare they are in relatively weaker position than say 10 years ago and are facing really tough competition from nikon and sony to a degree they never did back when they were the only credible digital game in town. It used to be canon doing the leading, now you see others pushing the evenvelope with mirrorless, evf and EVIL systems, trasnlucent mirrors, embedding phase focus sensors in the image sensor, contrast based focus that is fast and works, in camera IS for slr bodies, bigger MPs in aps-c and 35mm, big ISO figures (although it seems canon did as least catch up here), list goes on.

this is off course a good thing for the consumer and should be received with open arms. I hope to see even stronger pressure from sony and nikon because that means canon will really have to push the bounds to stay relevant and we all benefit from that.

sublime LightWorks

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #132 on: February 15, 2012, 07:58:04 AM »
You have to wonder, if Canon had released a 5Dmk3 in September (before the 1Dx was announced) and it basically had:

1) generally the same 21M sensor as today
2) the 7D functional feature set (AF system, metering, horizon guide, auto ISO, etc.)
3) a Digic-V processor or dual Digic-IV's like the 7D
4) a slight improvement in the high ISO noise, say 1/2 stop better due to improved sensor manufacturing
5) a 5-6fps shoot rate
6) used the same batteries and grip as the 5Dmk2
7) added a 60 fps video frame rate
8 ) additional firmware options

This for $2499......

How many people would be completely happy with that camera?

You're basically looking at off the shelf technology and mainly adaptation costs involved in the construction and integration, along with improved firmware.  Yet what you'd have would kick the crap out of 80% of the market.

I know that for a lot of mid-range, general studio, and wedding shooters, that's a solid camera and offers just about all that is needed in that market segment.  When you realize the image quality of a 3 year old 5Dmk2 still beats a vast majority of the competition, these tweaks remove the negatives of the current body and flesh out it's feature set nicely.

Looking at prosumer and up, it would still leave room for a 7Dmk2, an enhanced version of the 7D, same 18M pixels, but improved APS-C sensor, 10 fps. It leaves room for a 5Dx with higher megapixels, and the 1Dx for the pro market.
i would rather have the current rumoured camera at 3k

Understood.  But you do realize the rumored camera will NOT have a better noise performance at high ISO (low light) than the 1Dx....it will be worse.

You might ask why....it's simple.  The 1Dx has the latest 18M FF sensor and represents the best Canon can currently do with the sensor technology ready for mass production.  A 22M FF sensor will have more pixels and won't be able to produce images with less noise at the same ISO settings. 

So, you're going to trade off more noise for those extra pixels for $3k.  Frankly, I'd take what's in the package I outlined for $500 less and be able to use my existing grip and batteries making it about $800 less than the rumored option, and shoot cleaner images at ISO 3200 and 6400.

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #132 on: February 15, 2012, 07:58:04 AM »

Mark D5 TEAM II

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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #133 on: February 15, 2012, 07:59:18 AM »
More marketing bravado from Maeda, the same guy who said: "nobody complained about the 5D AF so we re-used that exact same AF module on the Mark II".  ::)

The fact of the matter is if Canon had no idea what the specs were for the D800 before it was released then it would be too late now to add or tweak features to the Canon model that is intended to go up against it. I'm sure they had more than an inkling about what's coming out from Nikon, and the 5-6 prototypes they reportedly were testing included a mix of 18-22MP versions and 30+ MP versions.
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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #134 on: February 15, 2012, 07:59:47 AM »
I think we need to wait until the first real test report to make final judgement on the new camera performance.  We have also seen the opposite claim that the D800 is so much worst then the D700 in noise and that Nikon users are frustrated.

The 1DX might end up to be one notch below the new D4 in noise comparaison but I would assume the opposite for the new 5DmkIII versus the D800.  Either way until we see RAW image, it is very hard to assess...
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Re: 5D Mark III/X Information [CR1]
« Reply #134 on: February 15, 2012, 07:59:47 AM »